Thoughts about training an "intelligent" dog

In My Humble Opinion
1

In March we got a goldendoodle. We have had goldens for the past 40 years. We’ve always thought of ourselves as dog lovers, pretty good dog trainers, and we’ve viewed our dogs as among the best trained dogs we’ve encountered.

This dog is quite different from our goldens. He is obviously very intelligent, but he is far less willing to “slavishly” do what we want. My approach - basically I do not need my dog to do too many things - but the few things I DO want, I insist on being done immediately and reliably. For instance, commands such as sit, stay, come, leave it, no. I want my dogs to be good hosts and guests. I’m happy to use a leash most times, but I’ve always enjoyed being able to exercise my dogs by playing fetch. And it has always been a great start to the day to have our dog run out and bring in the paper.

My experience/preference/nature (which I know several will disagree with) was a “pack/dominance” model - which I understand is currently out of favor. So we’ve been trying to use a more positive/cooperative/treat-based training. We’ve worked w/ an on-line trainer specializing in doodles.

This dog seems to learn things very quickly, but then after a while, he backslides or gets distracted. For example - after a couple of months getting the paper perfectly, one day he saw someone down the block and ran to them. Now, every day, when he goes out for the paper, rather than just getting the paper and coming back as my goldens would do, he checks to see if there is anything else of interest up and down the block. So if we want him to bring in the paper, we have to go out with him on a leash. Fuck that. If I have to go out there, i’ll do it myself w/o the dog.

Similarly, I used to play fetch w/ my goldens in an open field w/ no problem. W/ this dog, I’ve been working on it in a “courtyard” w/ a building on 3 sides. He’s pretty good at bringing it back - but he doesn’t bring it STRAIGHT back. Instead, he runs past me and makes a loop - again, acting as tho he is seeing if there is anything else to look at. Yesterday, when I attempted to gently correct that, he ran to our home (1/2 block away). Absolutely unacceptable and dangerous. And his reliability decreases if we do not treat.

He’s also a pain in the ass when people come over, such that we keep him on a leash. On a leash in our home, he is absolutely calm. But as soon as we take him off leash, he is a pain - all over guests, possibly peeing.

So, I don’t dislike the dog and am not going to punish him or anything, but I’m not sure I like him as much as I did any of my previous dogs. I’m also not sure how much more of what type of effort I ought to put into getting him to do what I like and expect from a dog. Maybe we just goofed w/ the breed (tho I do love the smaler size and no-shed.) And I realize he is still young and it is a long time since we last had a pup. He walks quite well on a leash, and I’m happy to give him frequent and long walks. But I’m finding myself less eager to tolerate things like him shoving a toy at me or even feeling like playing w/ him, when I do not perceive the “reciprocity” the “cooperative/reward” training supposes.

I appreciate any input.

2

I briefly owned a Schipperke. They are known for intelligence.

She was too smart for its own good. I had always left my dogs in the kitchen. Both entrances were closed off with kiddie gates.

I could never keep her in there. I’d come home from work and find her wandering in the house. There was always something chewed and damaged.

She escaped my yard several times. I got worried she’d teach my older dog how to get out of the yard. She had taught the other one to hop. That’s how the small Schipperke escapes. They start hopping. Getting higher and higher and get over gates.

So, she was sold. The new owner had the same problems. They had a new chain link fence installed. That worked for a few years. I heard she eventually got out and run over in the street.

I’ve only had one dog that would play catch. The others never showed any interest.

3

Yeah - we never used a crate before, but would not think of leaving this dog home uncrated. I know A LOT of folk believe crating the only way to go. And it is not a big deal. It is just different from our extensive experience.

4

I’m a touch confused, Dinsdale. He pees himself when he gets near guests, but only off-leash? Sounds like excitement to me. (As opposed to submission urination, which my Lab would sometimes do on meeting another dog, complete with subdued side to side tail wagging, and laying her head on the side on the ground. Then bounce into a play bow after acceptance by the new dog.)

Anyway, it’s still really annoying to deal with. And you’d obviously like it to stop. How old’s the dog? There’s a dog adolescence where they start being PITAs about following direction, and Labs, I’d joke, are brain-dead until the age of 2. So it may be a stage he outgrows quickly.

Dogs, especially bright breeds like poodles (which I’m guessing your 'doodle is taking after) need consistency. Need isn’t strong enough a word. They crave routine. Most want to please their person, but they need to know exactly what’ll do it. And when they step out of line, they need to be immediately corrected. So, establish a routine. Immediate praise for doing what you tell him to do; immediate correction when he decides to ignore what you told him. You want him eventually off-leash in your home around guests? Then start showing him—through commands, and gradual introductions to strangers—what he’s supposed to do. He’ll screw up, especially if he’s in that 9-15 month old, ‘F*#k You, Dad!!’ stage, but he’ll grow out of it if you keep up with the consistency and the corrections and praise.

What’s his name?

5

We have a doodle as well. She’s quite smart. She learns the tricks and then she learns how to cheat them. I’ll be watching this thread with interest, since it seems like the only thing to do is be constantly vigilant and keep challenging her. Seems like it’s gonna be exhausting.

6

You will be manipulated. You will be trained. The key is to be one step ahead of the critter.

I tell a story occasionally of how my old Weimaraner got manipulated by my GF, via the Weim’s dominance hierarchy, to choose to sleep in a hotel room chair vs trying to climb into bed with us. GF sat in the chair, lolled around on it, read her tablet for a bit while seated, all while being watched by the dog. Then she got up. The dog, a few minutes later, snuck on top of the chair, curled up with a toy, and was content.

Dominant dogs can be a real pain, sometimes.

7

He sounds like a very intelligent dog. He’ll have no problems training you.

Seriously, it’s hard to go wrong with an intelligent dog, but it can be challenging. A simple obedience class cab be helpful, it will help build some basics, but also IMHO dogs mature behavior-wise in that kind of environment by seeing other dogs go through the process. An intelligent dog will want to show you how intelligent he is and should do well with training.

8

I’ve trained many dogs, but I’ve always started off with a basic group class. Having a third party (the trainer) observe you interacting with your dog is invaluable.

9

9 months old. 37#. Lincoln.

Yeah - the ONLY problem one of our past goldens had was being overly submissive when people visited. Usu just rolled over and whined, but occasional leaking.

This guy gets extremely excited when people visit. On maybe 2-3 occasions, he piddled. Not a huge deal, but IMO 2x is too many. So we got in the habit of keeping him on a leash - at least when people first visit. W/ certain people, after 10 min or so he is cool to be let off leash. He gets too excited around my young grandchildren, so we just keep him on the leash. A lot of what he does is just sticking his nose at people - which we may not even notice always having had big dogs. Or you just push him away. But enough of our friends react in a big negative way, and we don’t want to inconvenience them, so we just keep him on leash w/ such people. Or we have people come over to play music. The instruments are too expensive to have him mucking about, and he is perfectly behaved lying down on leash.

Another friend is a total pain w/ dogs. Tho she thinks of herself as a dog person, what she excels at is making dogs behave badly. So we keep him leashed. The other day she was over and she kept saying variations of, “Oh, it kills me to not be able to say hi to you. But your mommy and daddy say I have to ignore you!” Really wanted to tell her to shut the fuck up after the 3d-4th time. So eventually, after the dog had been calm on leash at a distance, we let him approach her. Sure enough, she bent over saying stupid shit, and the dog jumped up and bopped her in the face.

Re: peeing - he had not peed for a couple of months. A couple of weeks ago, we ordered a pizza. When my wife was getting the za, the dog slipped thru the open door. The delivery man was really cool about it and the dog didn’t run anywhere, but the dog was excited and peed.

Maybe I’m lazy, but I’ve little interest in a dog “training” me - beyond the considerable effort/expense I’ve happily expended on past dogs. I like dogs for how they enhance my life. I’m not looking to join classes and other things to spend my time/$.

We’re working on extending the sit/down stays. I’m just thinking that we made a mistake in getting this breed. He’s a really cool dog - but IME, goldens give me more of what I enjoy in a dog. I remember reading a book in which they talked about the different types of dog intelligence, and asked if you really wanted a really smart dog. I’m thinking goldens show the type and level of intelligence we like.

10

My dog loves his crate. It’s his personal area. When he was a pup and still in the chewing stage it was necessary for the obvious reasons. Once he got to be 5 or 6 months - maybe a bit older, I really can’t recall - I’d start trusting him uncrated. Start slow. An hour. Gradually increase the time he’s allowed out of the crate unattended.
Oh, he still managed to do damage, but not near as much as he would have uncrated.
He’s had the run of the house for years now, but always returns to his crate when he wants to nap, or just hang out. The crate door is never closed.
I had used the kiddy gate method with 2 previous dogs. Buy a crate is all I will say.
As for training. Good friends would look down their noses when my current dog was a pup. He’s Lab/Border Collie. They have a 2 year old Shepherd that they’ve done 3 levels of training with at a very well respected training school. She’s not a lot better than mine was at that age. They’re puppies. They have to mature. Same as people.
Mine is 12 now. That’s about the age they get when dog & master achieve that companionship level you always dream about. Next thing you know they’re gone. We set ourselves up for heartbreak. My next dog won’t be a puppy. I can no longer deal with the energy. Lot’s of good older dogs out there looking for a home.
Good luck! Above all; don’t give up!!

11

I wouldn’t say you’re lazy at all. Just different preferences and different desires for free time allocation. A more challenging breed than Goldens, might not be what you want though.

Plus—real talk here—the 'Doodle craze has created a bunch of mutts, with wildly varying characteristics on temperament and later health issues. A Golden from a decent breeder, OTOH, you’re going to get a better idea of what the dog will grow into. The issues will be largely predictable, because Goldens have been around for awhile. There’s a large degree of individual spread of personality traits within a breed—heck, within a litter—but a good breeder will try to interview you and match puppy to owner. Harder to do with a dog as new as a 'Doodle.

For the inside peeing and being…assertive…in meeting new people, as I see it, you’re training Lincoln to behave one way on a leash, and yet another way off leash. If you want Lincoln to behave like he’s leashed, even when he isn’t, then—and it’ll take some work—you’ll need to reinforce that the desired behavior you want him to exhibit, applies whether he’s on or off leash. As it sounds now, Lincoln’s acting like a kid just out of school for the summer when that leash comes off. It needs to be no big deal—because you can still instantly correct him—if it’s on or off.

I used voice tone shifts, to the hilarity of my companions, to convey to the dog that Daddy was always watching. In particular, distract them from what they’re doing, then get them to come to you and praise them. So, “Lincoln, No!” Looks at you. (Hopefully). “Come.” Which he should do instantly. “Good boy!!” By which time, he’s forgotten about the bad thing he was doing and will do something else. If he’s really smart, and really clingy, he’ll figure out he can deliberately screw up, just to get you to pay attention to him…

9 months is a toughie, I’ll admit. Reconsider whether you don’t want to take some obedience classes with him. If you do, be specific (like you have here) with the trainer, explaining the behaviors you want Lincoln to exhibit, and the problem behaviors you’d like to eliminate.

12

Thx for the responses.

Yeah - we’re aware of the doodle issues. But, then again, there is no guarantee w/ goldens. The best you can do is tilt the odds in your favor - which is what we feel we’ve been doing in selecting purebreds.

We are pretty sure the poodle is more dominant in this guy than the golden. It is weird, because we know that we are very experienced and conscientious dog owners/trainers. And I don’t think Linc is a “bad dog.” He’s just very different from much of what I like in a dog. Hell - if i wanted, I have no doubt I could have this guy do all manner of performance behaviors. But I don’t care about that shit - putting in the time/effort OR the results.

If we are having these sorts of issues - you KNOW what sorts of problems all the chuckleheads you see w/ no dog experience must be having.

We always said our goldens didn’t “get their brains” until they were 2. Hopefully, in another year or so, Linc will become much closer to what I like. Being a couple of old dogs ourselves, we’ve realized that we far prefer old dogs than pups.

Re: training - we’ve had in-person training in the past w/ other dogs. And w/ Linc, we’ve done some on-line. Of course, there is the issue of COVID. And then there is the issue of finding a trainer that is a good match for you and your dog. So I doubt we’ll go that route anytime soon.

13

Ah… doodles. I love 'em, but they aren’t for everyone.

Many of my clients get them because they are “hypoallergenic”, or they are cute, or they just are the current fashion.

Then complain about their behavior, and how hard they are to train, and how they don’t listen and are hyper. They certainly can be a bit ADD.

They key, in my opinion, is to interrupt their unwanted behavior as quickly as possible. For this, I like finger snaps, tongue clucks, or sharp whistles; I don’t like clapping hands or vocalizing, that doesn’t seem to get their attention as well. I will also give them a bit of a swat on the behind from time to time, not hard, not at all, in fact, I often hit them harder when just playing, but enough to get their attention.

I don’t believe in ignoring bad behavior. You need to snap them out of it as quickly as possible, or they start finding their own rewards in it.

Physical contact is pretty useful too. You shins are excellent for this. Using your shin to push a dog away from the door, or from a guest that it is trying to jump on is an assertive but non-aggressive way of controlling their behavior. It is important that it is not the foot, not the knee, but entirely the shin that makes contact.

If they wink at you, always wink back. I have no idea if it helps, but it’s cute.

14

COVID makes a mess of life. Private training is great for advanced skills, group classes help to socialize a dog and get them to be less self centered as they see their place in a larger world.

15

Thanks k9. All sounds pretty similar to our preferred training experience/preferences. Just doesn’t seem to work as well or last as long w/ this guy. And our goldens never “unlearned” behaviors once learned. That is really irritating.

16

I am not a dog person, so take this with a grain of salt, but

  1. I think it’s fairly common for young dogs to leak when they are excited. I suspect this is something Lincoln will grow out of.
  2. I don’t think Lincoln has “unlearned” anything. I think he’s more creative than your previous dogs, and has learned things you didn’t teach him.

You taught him that it’s fun to bring in the paper. But he also learned that when he’s outdoors and off the leash he can make other kinds of fun. You taught him to play fetch, but again, he figured out that he can do other stuff, too.

One issue may be that most dogs don’t adore fetching things as much as retrievers do. Retrievers were literally bred and born to retrieve, and they take great joy in it. Other dogs (and some cats) enjoy it for a while, and enjoy the interaction with their person, but it’s just not as totally satisfying to them. And that may be a reason your doodle is looking for additional entertainment.

But all dogs like to please their person, so if you are really clear about what you like, and you are quick to correct the dog, and generous with praise when it does the task the way you want it to, I expect that it will grow out of the “test all the boundaries” stage.

But in the meantime, you might want to investigate other ways you and Lincoln can have fun – things that aren’t fetching. I dunno. I may be all wet about that, I just thought I’d throw it out there.

17

Reminds me of the really smart Dalmatian I had as a kid who was trained to jump at the side door when he needed to go out. He also liked to sit in the dining room chairs. So if my family were all sitting in the chairs, he’d go to the door and act like he needed to pee, and as soon as someone got up and unlocked the door he’d run back into the other room and curl up on the now empty chair. :roll_eyes:

18

@Dinsdale, can any of your dogs do all this? Fun starts at 0:50

You should lose all your dogs and get dolphins instead. They’ll show you who trains who!

19

@Dinsdale, are you familiar with the training technique called Operant Conditioning? In its basic idea, it works with any species of organism that has any semblance of a brain, although the details must be tailored for each species or breed. It’s a standard approach for training elaborate behaviors like you see in dolphin shows.

The basic idea is that you reward your animal anytime it does anything remotely similar to the behavior you’re trying to train. Then, you gradually start rewarding the behavior only when it is a little more like the behavior you want. Thus, you shape the behavior through successive approximations to what you want to train.

There must be plenty of information on-line you can find about it. I just took a quick look, but most sites are fairly superficial and just give some quick summary overview (just like the above paragraph), and mostly discuss it as applied to training children. Here’s a page that appears to be a chapter from a psychology textbook: Operant Conditioning.

Karen Pryor, one of the founders of Sea Life Park in Hawaii, wrote a book called Lads Before the Wind telling of her adventures there, including some discussion of the training techniques. (She also includes anecdotes of her attempts to train river otters, which are strangely similar to your Goldendoodle anecdotes.) If you can get it, it’s a fun read and gives some insights into successful animal training.

20

There’s an approach to dog training developed by Dr Victoria Voith called “Nothing in Life is Free”. If you search for articles about it, you might be interested in using it.

Very simply, the owners do not interact with the dog unless the dog “pays” first, for instance by sitting and staying for ten seconds.

I’ve seen it work for problem dogs.