Ooh… I like the way you think!
OK, bottom line, biggest fear: (and I didn’t click on the messiest apt–I just ate).
My sisters most likely had some kind of hoarding issue. It’s not that they collected certain types of shit, but they amassed way too much stuff, never cleaned, never organized, never sorted out or gave away stuff. Cleaning out their apts after they died was horrible, and not just because of the grieving.
One sister lived in an assisted living facility with a tiny kitchenette–she never learned to cook, but my mother sent me 7 boxes of cookware, utensils etc from this tiny kitchen. My other sister had a nice apartment in Bucktown (Chicago). She had tons of stuff as well; we gave away a dining room set, an armoire, two double beds (one bedroom apt), clothes, clothes, clothes, fabric, fabric, fabric, (she sewed); boxes of unused 35 mm film (she didn’t have that kind of camera)-I could go on and on. And then we tackled her storage facility “box”. :eek:
So much stuff. #1 son does not buy random shit (yet), but I have noticed that he has trouble throwing stuff away. My fear is this: that he will be like his aunts in this regard. I know I can’t change his brain chemistry by what I’m doing, but I am hoping (fool’s hope, probably) that by instilling the habits, the degree to which he does this will not be as severe.
Also (and this is only half facetiously) when my DIL glares at me re his slovenly habits, I can say I did all I could!
<rubs hands together in gleeful anticipation> I could score Link’s ocarina… or some guitar picks. :dubious:
I’m not going to stop trying. I’ve seen what can happen with “laissez faire” parenting. No thanks.
Having been a 16-year-old son myself … it’s pretty much a done deal. Except for a few small things, he’s the man he’s going to be. There’s nothing more you can do except make him annoyed and hostile.
Here’s another vote for letting him keep his room however he wants. I remember when I was 16 my parents drove me insane trying to keep tabs on my living space. I knew wasn’t grown up yet, but I needed to feel like I had a space that was mine, and my parents trying to enforce it just made me want to leave it in disarray more. I’m closer to a neat frank now then anything else, I just needed my own space to take care of.
I completely disagree with the notion the room should be left as in when the mom has stated he leaves empty soda bottles in there. That’s asking for bugs and that’s not a good living condition. His precious lil psyche can develop somewhere else if it requires leaving around empty soda bottles.
I had much the same problem with my older son only in addition to the unwashed dishes in his case (he didn’t drink soda), he also left his used needles lying around for anyone to step on them (type 1 diabetes). You bet your sweet bippy that was not acceptable, and if that was crowding his self expression, too bad.
Eleanor, it’s understandable that you’re concerned about your son becoming a hoarder with your personal experience with it, but be careful not to push him too hard on this if all he’s doing is being a normal 16 year old boy. You don’t want his form of rebellion to be the thing you want most for him to not do (well, I guess that’s kind of the nature of teenage rebellion).
I second the basketball hoop over the garbage can, too. Guys can’t resist scoring points.
ETA: Remembered what else I meant to say - what you could also do is tell him that you’re cleaning up his room for him next time it reaches a certain level of slobbery - and putting everything but the bed and furniture in big plastic bins. He can have access to them and take anything he wants back into his room, but that’s where his stuff is all going to be if he won’t clean up.
I came in here to post this. Threatening him with revoked “privileges” like TV, computers and the like might get him to temporarily clean - but it’ll be halfassed, bare minimum stuff and you’re going to piss him off mightily. Speaking as a relatively recently disgusting-teenager-male graduate I’m well qualified to assure you of that.
The absolute worst thing you can do is the “you have XYZ to clean this room to my satisfaction. If it isn’t clean to my satisfaction than Very Bad Thing will happen” bit. Oh man, I’m getting steamed up just remembering conversations like this, and it’s been the better part of a decade since I’ve heard it.
I ditto the suggestions that your best chance is making it as easy as possible for him. A big trash can and laundry happen should make a huge difference - even a single rough once-over collecting the major trash and piling the laundry in the hamper can make the task a lot less daunting.
ETA: Oh, and I think you people mentioning hoarding behavior and linking that nauseous apartment are being completely ridiculous. Those of you suggesting a “do it or else” attitude must either Rule With An Iron Fist or have no idea how a sort-of-grown man will react to ultimatums like that.
Whoa…if you just felt a sudden surge of affection wash over you, that was me. I’m so glad to hear someone say this!
acsenray, you may be right about the kid having already become whatever he’s going to be, but I don’t think parents should just give up when their kids turn sixteen.
Is he doing drugs or alcohol? Is he stealing? Is he engaging in risky sexual behavior? Is he getting into debt? Is he failing school? Is he terminally unable to complete tasks in a manner that interferes with his life (i.e., unable to get up and go to work on time)? Is he committing crimes? Is he creating a serious risk to his health? Is he creating a physical danger? Is he emotionally abusive towards other members of the household?
If it’s not anything as serious as that, then you have to come to accept that you can’t make another person be who you want him or her to be.
At some point, you have to acknowledge that your kid is another person, not “your kid.” I don’t know whether that comes right at 16, but it comes. You can’t impose your own standards on another person without souring your relationship or creating resentment.
For the kid in my household, the answer to some of those questions is yes. But even if it wasn’t, when a kid lives in your home, he should go by your rules. Doing so may not change the person he is deep down inside, but I still don’t see any reason to let him have food and garbage in his room.
If he insists, maybe he should consider his own role in creating resentment and souring relationships.
I agree on the laissez faire parenting - we all see the results, every day. On the other hand, I’m a big fan of age appropriate rules. At 16, I would probably say what I said about my own house earlier in the thread - if it isn’t creating a health hazard or encouraging vermin, I’d probably pick other battles to fight. If it was creating a health hazard and encouraging vermin, I’d fight it to the end of the earth - no one gets to turn the family house into a toxic dump.
And that attitude is a problem, in my view. It’s a fundamental failure of respect for the autonomy of another individual. It’s one thing when it’s an actual child, but at some point, a child becomes a person. A person should have a zone of autonomy, regardless of who holds the deed to his or her residential space.
I call horsefeathers – sounds like another cultural myth to me. “Parenting” is basically a series of steps in which a parent cedes autonomy to the child. Maybe 16 isn’t the stage where complete autonomy is appropriate, but it certainly seems me the stage where “if you want to live like a pig, keep it in your room” is appropriate.
The place where I think you and I will have to disagree is where the autonomy infringes on a calm peaceful house. In the case of my older son, his sloven ways were disrespectful to the rest of the family, and he also caused a health hazard with his needles lying around everywhere. And no I’m not exaggerating, he just left them where ever he happened to be when he took his insulin.
I can tolerate some mess, I’ll just shut the door. When the mess causes environmental issues that can cost money to fix (in the case of bugs or mice) or can cause health issues (used needles), then yeah I reigned in his autonomy.
The give and take can’t always be just by the parents, which it almost seems you are saying.
I’m no Bill Frist, so I decline to offer a diagnosis by video tape. My series of questions in post No. 72 will have to stand for itself.
Short of actual hazard, I think parents should back off the “clean your room” and “my house, my rules” bit when it comes to near-adult children. But as far as whether any specific situation is hazardous, well, that’s merely a question of fact, isn’t it?
Well, I’m speaking specifically of keeping food in the room and drawing vermin. Then it’s affecting the rest of us. Socks on the floor? I can respect your zone of autonomy and stuff.
Whoa. Is this some kind of hot button issue for you? Are you 16 and male and have a basement bedroom?
Since when is not doing drugs, being honest, and a dedicated student the minimum standard? You’re supposed to do all 3 (or not do 2, and do the last–you know what I mean). Is this how we measure healthy people now? They’re not abusive, criminals or drugged out? That seems strangely upside down to me.
OK. I’m not trying to “make” him into someone different. I’m trying to give him the tools he’ll need to live an independent life. Housework never goes away–I don’t care who you are or how much money you make. If you make enough to have a maid–you have to accommodate the maid in some ways etc. If I had to go to the wall for this, I probably wouldn’t–this isn’t (as you say) life threatening. But hopefully, we are not at life threatening and just at, “wouldn’t it be nice, if…” I like the second one much better, don’t you? (and it’s not just that. Discipline in small things helps with discipline in larger things).
16 seems a bit young for that, no? He’ll be in HS until he’s 18, and we’re paying for college. I don’t see #1 son as solely a reflection of me–that’s a reach. Did you miss my first post? He’s a great kid. If I never solve this issue, I can live with it, BUT I feel I have to try.
I can’t impose my standards on another person without souring my relationship or creating resentment? Wtf? All my kids whom I made to say “please” and “thank you” and take turns, besides making them be polite to their elders, not act out physically or emotionally in public, not allowing them to pick their noses or worse etc–this has caused them lifelong resentment and soured our relationship? Well, then, bring on the lemons. I’m all for it. That’s my job–I’m not their friend or their [del]enabler[/del] pal, I’m their mother.
How about all those patients I insisted get out of bed, despite their “pleas” not to? Or the ones who I instructed on the consequences of smoking before surgery (or eating)? Damn that RN behind my name, making people do what they don’t want to do. This is a bit much, no?
Fact is, we impose our standards on one another constantly–that’s part of being a social animal. Throughout this issue with #1 son, I have tried to compromise, to reach accord and to see his POV. He knows that. He also knows he is lazy about this kind of stuff and he can get overwhelmed once his room hits critical mass. It’s my job as a parent to not only instruct and impose standards, but also to teach negotiation and compromise. IMO, your experience, whatever it may have been, is coloring your reaction to this thread.
I’d get him the b-ball hoop for the waste basket, but he really hates sports. He has 2 laundry baskets: he was quite taken with the notion of one for clean and the other for dirty. That lasted less than a week–it’s an amalgam now. I have ceded him the laundry (as I noted in the OP). Someday he will discover that neat invention, the hanger. He has hooks–not used. I think the girl issue may well solve it, but he has not expressed an interest in bringing a girl home as yet. (please note the careful phrasing of that).
That seems strangely upside down to me.