Thoughts on "inspiring/motivating" a 7th grader

In My Humble Opinion
1

Just wondering if anyone might have any thoughts on how we can constructively address what we view as some problemmatic character/personality traits in our youngest child, a 7th grade daughter M.

M lies about and hides all kinds of things – big or small. Can be as small – and easily confirmable - as “Did you make your bed yet?” Or “Do you have any homework?” Or, “Did anything happen between you an X the other day?” We often find out about things going on with her at school and socially from other kids’ moms, rather than her. For example, we will wonder why she hasn’t gotten together with a friend lately. And in the market we will run into another parent who will tell us M and the “friend” had had a big fight over something.

I understand that each individual incident might seem minor. But if you lived with her, you would realize that she was not truthful with you SO often, that you had a difficult time believing she was ever being truthful.

M frequently makes downright nasty critical comments to her siblings and parents. She rarely gets social calls/invites from classmates – which makes me wonder if she acts similarly towards them. Again, each instance might seem minor, but it is inescapable to notice how often she insists on having the last say, and interjects some snarky comment after a discussion is over. Comments that have no apparent purpose other than being critical of others.

She tests off the charts, but does no more than minimal effort in classes. Moreover, she doesn’t show a real interest in anything. She is doing very well at bassoon – and claims to like it, but never practices unless we remind her. She seems to be quite good at dance, but limits her involvement to once-weekly lessons. She is extremely content to simply watch TV. When we suggest that she read, she most often re-reads books and magazines below her grade level, instead of pursuing any interests or seeking out new material.

A sample scenario. Last weekend we got a progress note that she is getting a D in math. We said she had to do better, and had to bring home her math book so we could work on it together. This a.m. Mrs D met with her teacher. Last night, I asked if she had any homework. She said no. I asked if she brought home her math book so we could work on it. She said no – she forgot. (She also “forgot” the day before.)

We noticed she had some books in her backpack. She said she didn’t like the way her backpack “looked” when it didn’t have books in it. We told her not to carry unnecessary burdens, and if she HAD to carry some books, why they heck wasn’t it math and Spanish, her two worst subjects. No answer.

This morning my wife meets with the teacher. (We now have a copy of her math book at home.) Apparently last night M failed to bring home a test she had done poorly on. Did she think we wouldn’t ever find out? Moreover, M could have made-up some points if she had corrected the problems she had missed.

M is a very bright kid. She is very cute, with an impish twinkle in her eye. Very often, when people meet our 3 kids, they will comment that there is “something special” about M. Which is odd to us as parents, because A – the oldest – is a phenomenal workhorse, with tremendous musical and scholastic results to show for her efforts. C, the middle, has a mind that clearly operates somewhat differently than most people I know. Whereas M’s idea of dinner conversation is to mention a TV commercial, or lines from some sitcom re-run. And M seems to stir up far more unpleasantness than anyone else in the family.

We readily admit that we have very high expectations of our kids. We do not expect/require all As, but the kids are certainly capable of As and Bs. In our opinions, Cs or below are due to an almost intentional lack of effort. And while we do not expect our kids to constantly amuse and entertain us with their witty repartee, we do expect at least that they will not unnecessarily seek to provoke other family members, or lie in response to direct questions.

Wondering if any of you had any thoughts on how we might be able to break what seems to be in danger of becoming a kind of unhealthy circle of behavior within our family. We don’t want to get mad at her and punish her, but we are very frustrated at our supportive efforts being unsuccessful. Thanks in advance for any input.

2

Well Dinsdale here are a few thoughts…

First and foremost I do not see any of the things you mention as being minor. Nor do I see any of them setting off emergency red warning lights…

A few Q’s first. How far apart is she from her closest sibling?
How do her siblings treat her i.e. is there unseen competition, scorn maybe? Is she ridiculed?
Biology: Don’t forget hormones are starting to race at her age…

Why not trying empowerment? She may need something to call her own, she may not want it at this time in her life, so switch it a little and make it something she would want to call her own. A task maybe, a project…something that is hers. A bit of reverse psychology may be needed…because being what 13? she may need to feel like she wants to take on something, not that she has to.

If you already know she did something, and come at her with, “…did something happen between you and x…” than you are already setting her up. How often does this happen? If you know something and want to confront her…than confront her by saying what it is first…kids of 13 are very smart, as I am sure you know…they know when they are being set up and when they are not, and this usually elicites defense mechanisms sometimes on the subconscious level.

This may be something to look at as well, is she responding to Unspoken stress in the family? This is a huge contributor to teens running awry in seemingly splendid family settings…

more to come…

3

Regarding your questions:

eldest girl, HS soph, turns 16 in Jan
middle boy, 8th grade, 14 last Aug
M, 7th, 12 last June

It seems as tho the eldest 2 get along better than either does with M. But we often overhear unpleasantness by M that makes this unsurprising.

Which, of course, is made difficult by her apparent unwillingness/inability to identify and pursue an interest.

For example, she seems much more “artistic” than her siblings. And we are very willing to look into craft and arts classes, supplies for x-mas presents, etc. But she has consistently shown little interest in pursuing them. And gifts, once given, go unused. Like I said, she is very musical, and a very naturally talented dancer. But she is very satisfied just going with the minimal lessons in both. No interest in joining a tap troupe, the jazz band, etc. We offer to support her in these alternatives, but try to avoid pushing her.

We don’t try to trap her with trick questions. But a common situation will have her is sitting around on a weekend with nothing to do. We’ll say, “Why don’t you call up a friend?” And then the friend declines an invite, or doesn’t return a call. We’ll ask why, and she’ll deny knowledge. Then Mrs D will hear from another kid’s mom about some tiff between M and the kid she called. When we hear of such things, we try to address them openly.

4

It seems like shes simply being 12, but the aloofness with everything is what I am wondering about. Some children who are biologically shy, often have difficulty with parents or sibs that are not. Sounds like she may need a shy buddy to share an interest with. If she’s distancing, then maybe a healthy distancing on your part would be a good idea. I wouldn’t do anything too drastic, but keep in mind sometimes it is difficult for a pre-teen to speak openly with parents. As I am sure you are well aware.
You are in Chicago? Would she like to do any type of volunteer work? If so the Make-A-Wish Foundation may be a good place to start. Lot’s of lessons learned from that institution (my wife and I happen to be annual donors and volunteers).
It may help her find some perspective. There are quite a few youngsters volunteering at our chapter here in ct.

5

I’m not a parents, but looking back over myself at that age… I was not a “sharer” of troubles with my parents. I did not lie openly to them but often withheld information. Basically I did not want to deal with their yap yap yap on every twist & turn in my life. I had great parents, don’t get me wrong. I went through a period (in the 7th Grade, no less) when I was suddenly ditched by my friendgroup for no reason (I turned uncool). I would not have discussed this with my parents for love or money. What could they do about it? Girls are just mean sometimes and there’s no rhyme or reason to it – and it just made me feel worse to rehash it. Eventually I found new friends, graduated from Hell, I mean, Junior High and went on to lead a happy productive friend-filled life.

Have you considered getting her involved with animals? She might really like horseback riding (the skillset is actually quite similar to dance) and it takes dedication and hard work. She will meet friends who don’t go to her school, have a non-parent authority figure to look up to (her instructor or older, more accomplished girls), and never be allowed to vent her temper on her partner.

I was the kind of kid who picked up things easily… but if I wasn’t a natural at something, I just didn’t want to do it. I would also get bored easily at tasks that were too simple. Horseback riding is the only thing I’ve ever done in my life that I have persevered at despite lacking natural talent. I started when I was ~9. Almost 20 years later I’m still at it.

It’s a rather expensive hobby that is not practical in every area. My followup suggestion is a pet of her own to take of and be responsible for (even if there is already a family pet.) Acquiring a dependent has a way of making some people sit up and take notice of the world.

Sorry for the slightly rambly post.

6

I have a similar situation in my house. The eldest is a go getter - extremely motivated and competitive. This translates to straight A’s, varsity sports, and extra curricular activites. She also has more friends than you can shake a stick at. Etc., etc. etc.

The middle has fewer friends, and consistently underachieves. She “forgets” review sessions, homework, and to study for tests. She also “forgets” to do her chores, and could happily spend an entire day watching MTV.

These are the things that have helped her - to the point where she now at least attempts to get decent grades, has a handful of friends, and seems happier over all.

  1. Find something she is doing right and acknowledge it. You don’t need to praise it to high heavens, or even give a compliment about it per se. Just acknowledge it in an approving tone of voice. For example, if she sets the table after only being asked once - I’ll say when everyone has sat down to eat: “Ann set the table tonight.”
    Seems too easy to be true, but this technique really, really helps change behaviors.

1a) If she’s doing something really obnoxious ignore the behavior but not the child. If she’s watching TV for the 10th straight hour, have a little conversation with her without saying a word about the TV.

  1. Support her choices no matter how at odds they are with your values. Ann is a cheer leader. Now before I had kids and all the while my kids were growing up I swore NO CHILD OF MINE would be a cheerleader. But that’s where her muse is taking her, so now damned if I’m not sitting in the stands watching a bunch of ninth grader girls cheer for a ninth grade boy’s basketball game. Make Saddam do this and he’d be singing like a canary in 20 minutes. As long as this stays legal I’ll keep doing it.

  2. Use incentive programs. This can be dicey with more than one kid. I once told Ann that she’d get a reward for every book read. “No fair” yells my oldest, “I read tons of books. Why no goodies for me?”
    Here’s the answer to that: Incentive programs are to re-enforce a change in behavior. They must be specific to the person they are being designed for. Ann needs to read more- so that’s what we’re trying to reinforce. You don’t need a push to read. However, we can identify something that you could use some help to accomplish and use the promise of earned goodies as incentive. Oldest child and I decided that practicing her French horn every day was the thing that would earn her something.

  3. Make a rule that something she likes can only happen if something she doesn’t like so much has been completed. Then NO NAGGING. Let’s say the rule is: “You can go to the store with me if your bed is made.” Then don’t say another word about it. When you get ready to go to the store ask one time if her bed is made. If yes, peachy. If no, tell her that you’re planning on leaving in 15 minutes, if her bed is made by then she can go, if not then too bad. If she says her bed is made but it is not, don’t say anything about the lie. Just that the bed is not made. Then either take her or not depending on her actions. No nagging, no criticism - pure cause and effect.

  4. Then this last semester I hit on the best idea yet. I paid my oldest kid to tutor Ann. If Ann got an “A” on an upcoming Math test, the tutor would get paid. (Ann got something too so that she wouldn’t tank on purpose). What this did was harness the oldest kids’ competitive nature and diligence in a way that helped Ann. This was only possible, I need to add, because Ann and her sister get along. If they hated each other’s guts it might not have worked.

As it was, it put both kids on the same team. Ann had been getting 70’s on her math tests. After a one-day intensive tutor session she earned a 95. More importantly, Ann learned study habits from her sister (she never really understood how to study for a test before) and has had improved grades ever since.

7

She sounds shockingly like me at that age, right down to the D in math. This is long, but I think it’s worth reading.

I was a gifted, artistic kid whose parents had high expectations and always did their best to further my education. I had so much promise. And yet I spent middle school slacking off, failing math, telling stupid lies and generally applying myself at mediocrity.

Why?

Because I’d never had anything of my own. I had a desperate need to assert my identity. For so long I had been pushed to succeed that it never felt like my own project. I’d heard so much about my potential that the only act that seemed to have free will left was to fail. My mom was buying me “how to get into the Ivy Leagues” books when I was 12. I felt way too pushed into things. Like I was always getting grades for someone else. As if someone else was living their life through me. And so actively negating all this brightness, all this potential and these expectations was the only way I felt like I could act that would be for myself. It was the only active choice I could see that asserted myself as a person and master of my life.

I always kind of always believed I couldn’t fail, and it was around that time that I realized that I could. I was amazed at all that possibility. I wanted to prove that I could do all kinds of stuff- including outright not succeed. I’d hide bad tests and steal my report cards from the mailbox- even though I knew I’d be found out in the end- because I could. It amazed me that I could be a “bad kid”. That I could just outright disregard consequences like that. It felt like power. And it felt good, too, to finally be free of the pressure to always get 4.00s, to become valedictorian, to never ever screw around even a little bit. Middle school seemed like the right time. Public schools treat their kids like a mix of small children and criminals. It’s humiliating, boring, and pretty pointless. It’s pretty hard thing for a smart independent thinker to buy in to.

And of course, the more I was nagged, the more I rebelled. The more dedicated I became to doing exactly the opposite of what people wanted me to do. The more people tried to push me into their mold, the more I sought to do anything but what they wanted me to. I’ve always been a pretty stubborn person. I’d cut off my nose to spite my face any old time. It’s not the pressure so much as pressure mixed with coercion that gets me. I still have problems not resenting my own brightness and all the expectations that come with that.

I became secretive because my mom asked a lot of questions. It made me feel like a non-human to have every trivial aspect of my life- from who I was fighting with to what I carried in my backpack- be considered a valid topic of public conversation, to be probed and dissected and hung out in all its glory. It made me feel like my life wasn’t my own. Like I didn’t even own my own friends, my own private time, my own right to my thoughts. If you had asked me a question about why I packed my backpack a certain way, I’d feel like I was being criticized, and that you were taking away my right to make small, arbitrary decisions, and that no corner of my life would be free from relentless probing. I’d wonder why the hell you thought it was any of your business if I carried unnecessary burdens or not, and probably conclude that you were on some weird power trip to micromanage my life and make me feel stripped bare whenever possible. Every time mom asked me a question, I felt invaded. It made me angry and helpless and eventually I started telling the easiest answers instead of the true ones because that would usually stop the onslaught of questions, and still protect what I considered “mine”.

I had a hard time socially because middle school children are stupid and annoying. While I was pondering the effects of social policy, discovering Communism and trying to figure out the meaning of life, my peers were gossiping, spreading rumors and acting like the vacuous and vicious hormone crazed children that they were. People spread horrible rumors about me- like that I had STDs. People threw rocks at me. The administration seemed to accept bullying as a normal part of human development. There wasn’t any coherent geek culture. I still thought I wanted to be one of the popular people even though I knew I was made out of different cloth than them. So I just felt left out and alone. I became withdrawn and depressed. When forced to interact, I acted hostile towards people because it was the only kind of interaction that didn’t leave me both hurt and feeling stupid.

Middle school was obviously a hard time for me. Then everything got better.

In High School, I discovered punk rock, which is actually a fairly thoughtful lifestyle. It gave me a healthy outlet for all these heavy thoughts I had about world politics and the like and all the emotions they stirred up in my immature mind. It’s a very ethical and political movement that gave me the framework for all these thoughts that I was missing. It also made me feel like I belonged to something, and the Do-It-Yourself ethic inspired me to take more active, positive steps in my life and my community. I began to take on my own creative and ambitious projects directly as a result of punk rock values. But I still got to be rebellious and reject the parts of society that bugged me- that’s what punk rock is all about. Plus, I had a hell of a lot of fun skulking around punk rocks shows as a teenager, and those are some of my fondest memories of teenagerdom.

Punk rock, combined with a wider selection of more mature people found in high school, taught me that there were things to do besides try to fit into the mainstream or just sit around negating everything. I discovered geeks and drama people and all the fun loving and thoughtful freaks that populated my large diverse high school. I began to build up my own identity apart from what people expected of me. People started liking me. I got attention from boys. I stopped trying to dress like the cool people and started dressing myself in creative and unique ways. I realized it was okay, even cool to be different. I was never Miss Popular, but I was a small scale social superstar. I’ve never had any social troubles since, and have a smallish circle of very close friends- many from high school- and have no problems getting the boys.

Academically, I promised myself I wouldn’t even try for valedictorian. I semi-purposefully futzed a few classes because I didn’t even want to begin with the pressure of having this 4.00 that I’d always have to worry about for four years. I focused more on art and after-school activities than my classes. I was active in drama and the poetry magazine, along with a myriad of my own projects. But I never applied myself that hard academically. Not that I did terribly (I graduated with a 3.63- just barely didn’t make the top ten percent of my class) but good enough to get into the only college I was interested in (which I had decided on as like a sophomore, and which was a great choice). I did pretty stellar on tests, and got 5s on a couple AP exams. I was part of the “other”, non-preppy intellectual elite. We were the presidents of the art clubs, the ones that read Russian novels in class just to be punks, the ones that would hijack classroom discussions into the realm of politics and philosophy and all the stuff we’d read about and discuss over lunch to each other and with our teachers after school. If class was boring, we’d draw, talk about our own things, read other books under our desks or work on any of the creative random projects we had going on. We weren’t the preppy 4.00 people. We were edgy. We had sex and did drugs (but shockingly responsibly). We came to class bleary eyed after late punk rock shows. We read existentiasm and wore armbands to school to protest wars, and dressed in lots of black leather and spikes and miniskirts. But we held our own intellectually and honestly I think we got more respect from our teachers.

I never did get the hang of math. Something about algebra in all its forms eludes me still. I know I start with one number and I have to get another number and I have to do some kind of voodoo in between, but I never quite grasped what I was supposed to do and why it was so important to get that number exactly right. Math was a struggle (except geometry, which I got an A in) and I barely passed the mandatory two years. It involved lots of cheating on homework and crying over tests. But I passed my last math class Jr. year and realized I never had to take math again, so it was okay.

In college I did great. As in completely fantastically. I went to a school without grades, and that freed me from having to worry about stupid arbitrary numbers all the time and focus on what I was learning. Free from naggings and worries about “will this look good on my college application”, I started to take control of my education and delight in my studies. I felt like I was finally following my interests, for my benefit, with only myself to answer to. I talked to my mom all about what I was studying and what I was writing but I never let her see my evaluations. I was perfectly capable of providing enough pressure of my own to succeed. I’d often go way beyond expectations (another thing that I think was encouraged by not having grades) The only problem is I had a hard time getting close to teachers, because I was afraid of all their expectations. But anyway, I graduated with honor in my college and my department.

I’m still prone to depression and I’m still very secretive around my family. I still feel defensive and probed when I come home and my mom unleashes the onslaught of questions about what I consider the most private and personal little bits of my life. But we don’t scream and fight anymore and we get along pretty well as adults.

So I don’t have any good answers. I just waited things out until high school. Counseling might have helped my depression. Some kind of change in schooling might have helped me get through those years a little less painfully, but home schooling a might have made me feel smothered. An intellectually advanced (which, for a bright kid, means not boring) magnet school that enourages kids to follow their interests might have helped, even though it seems counter-intuitive. But then that might have been even more pressure. I don’t know. I wish I could have done the whole “gradeless” thing in middle school and high school, but I don’t know of any programs that do that. What encouragement I did get to persue my art and follow my own personal interests did help a lot. I had a few extra-curricular classes with other bright, like minded people and those were great as long as the “this will look good on your college application” aspect was avoided. You might also look into some “unschooling” advocates that focus on the teen years for ideas. Unschoolers are usually bright kids that just get sick of the indignity of having to raise their hands to go to the bathroom and the total lack of challenge most schools present. Even if unschooling isn’t a good idea on the whole, it helped me to know there were alternatives, and generally that I wasn’t going to be stuck in all this stupidity forever.

Good luck! I hope I offered you some insight and maybe some good advice. I’m sorry you have to go through this. I’m certainly glad I never had to be my parents.

8

Lots of good ideas, Capri.
But they sure sound like a lot of work.
Sure we couldn’t just try medication? :wink:
Thanks. Lots to think about.

9

Thanks for the long and thoughtful post, sven.

Glad you found something to focus you.
Tho M’s heart still belongs to Elvis, she alone of the rest of my family shares my appreciation for the only band that matters.

Will respond at greater length tomorrow.

10

even sven you were able to articulate my own experience of “god do we have to talk about this?” much better than I ever could. All I can add is, “yeah, what you said.” Some elements of my life are different (I was a good student and not outwardly rebellious) but the feelings, much the same.

I have actually always been a bit of a private and self-reliant person… when I got my first period I didn’t even think to mention it to my mom (what possible business of hers could it be?), I just took care of things and went on my merry way. I was 9 at the time.

BTW, gradeless middle school is possible in the Montesorri movement. Unfortunately, Montesorri middle schools are very very rare. I’ve often thought I (and, indeed, most middle schoolers) would have profitted from the Montesorri approach more at that age than any other time.

11

I am a seventh grade teacher, and I have students like your daughter, Dinsdale. I have heard parents lament a similar lack of motivation and seeming apathy in their kids. What to do?

I have no easy answers for you, but I will tell you this: do not stop asking her questions. Take care to be respectful of her burgeoning obsession with privacy, but don’t let anyone make you feel bad for giving a damn about your kid and for asking her what’s going on. That’s your right as a parent and kids do appreciate the concern even as they bridle at it. It’s a fine line to walk and impossible to walk perfectly, but I’m just trying to affirm that you’re not a villain for inquiring.

Though this runs counter to what even sven is saying, I have a suggestion: have your kid’s teachers send home a weekly report, telling you how she did on her homework and tests last week, and what work is upcoming next week. That way, you will already know what she has done and what she needs to do, so you can completely circumvent the dance of “What homework do you have?/Nothing!” and the inevitable feeling you get of being deceived. If she knows that you already know, you can cut to the chase, sit down, and get it done.

Counseling is also not a bad suggestion. This is not to say that your kid has psychological problems, but maybe having an adjustment issue. Having a confidante who will listen, not judge, and help her deal with people better, who is NOT you or her mom, might help her. Just a thought.

Good luck, and if you figure out a great way to motivate 7th graders, please let me know, OK?

12

Dinsdale, it’s important to be remember that there’s a difference between being truthful and being confiding. You have every right to demand that your daughter be truthful with you–i.e., she has to be honest about whether she did her homework or made her bed. But you can’t make her confide in you. I never would have told my parents about a fight with my friends. In my mind, it was simply none of their business. You have to respect the fact that your daughter has a private life as well as a family life and an academic career, and that she may not choose to share it with you. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t love you; it doesn’t mean she’s sneaky; it may just mean that she doesn’t feel that it’s any of your concern.

Counseling may work for your daughter. The thought of sharing my personal problems with a stranger makes me intensely uncomfortable, and I doubt I would have responded well to a counselor. YMMV.

I recommend reading Cat’s Eye by Margaret Atwood if you want insight into the minds and society of young adolescent girls. It’s a great novel, and it really portrays how capricious and cruel girls can be.

13

I’m kind of late adding to this, but in a way she sounds like me (though I was a very good student). Part of it could just be that she is 12, yeah, that’s true. However, I only realized much later that that was that start of my depression. It lasted on and off for a few years (6th-9th grade or so) and then reappreared later in life. I don’t know how open M would be to the suggestion, but she could be feeling overwhelmed and need to talk to a therapist (whose first suggestion should not be medication!). If you think M would go for it, you might say “sweetie, we are really worried that even though you are so smart you are not doing well; even though you are so wonderful you don’t hang out with your friends. If there is something bothering you, then we really do care enough to want to know. And if you feel funny talking to us about it, then we can get you someone to talk to.” And you can either call the school to find out if they have someone, or go through your health insurance plan.

This isn’t said as a warning that there might be something really wrong with her; it is just that at that age there is so much going on in the development of who you are in the world, what your place is, etc it can be hard to figure it out. Frankly, I think it is harder for the smart kids because they may analyze the world too much.

Hope it isn’t too late to add in my two cents.

14

I think somewhere in even sven’s post she hit on what may be the crux of M’s problem. IMO it’s one or both of these:

  1. Lack of challenge. I too was good at nearly all the subjects in school. It took me little effort to earn an A; it took more effort and gumption to earn a D. Fortunately, I was able to latch onto something that nobody in school was good at (not even the teachers). Computers. Our school had exactly one (this was 1980, mind) in the library and no one had the faintest idea how to do more than run the few programs it came with. It immediately fascinated me and I learned enough to become the local expert on it. I even got to help out with the following couple of years classes in computer programming and grading fellow students attempts and helping set up the room. I helped several of my friends become experts in their own right. Perhaps M simply needs to find something she’s not a natural at and get interested in it. Sports? Chess? Photography? Ask her what she’d really like to do.

  2. Socialization. Maybe most of her friends do not have their grades or artistic talents come so easy and she realizes this. She’d rather fit in with them than live up to her potential. I was there too. I wanted to do what my friends did in their spare time. Sometimes I dumbed myself down in conversations so I didn’t come across as a know-it-all geek. Don’t know what to tell you if that is the case – I snapped out of it after a while as I became increasingly uncomfortable pretending to be something I wasn’t. I found new friends I felt comfortable being myself around. I guess I’d recommend not getting mixed up in her social life just yet.

Good luck to you and M. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, bright kids don’t waste their potential their whole lives, they usually come around after some self evaluation (that’s one reason they’re bright.