Maybe that’s what they were practicing out back, after all . . .
You just weren’t sexy enough, China Guy. Sorry to break it to you.
Of course. But this is not that different than the education systems of most other places at similar stages of development.
Most traditional education systems focused on memorization due to the simple fact that books were extremely rare, so if you wanted to “have” a book you’d have to memorize it. Most traditional education systems spend time teaching arcane rituals, since “mastery of arcane rituals” was one of the few ways that the ruling class could justify focusing on governance rather than food production- which is really useful if you want an organized civilization rather than loose bands of tribes. In modern times, we might call this same function “law school.”
You can’t expect a traditional education system to suit modern goals. At the same time, when thinking about education systems it is possible to imagine some middle ground. China managed to look within their history to develop a modern education system that doesn’t scrap the traditional exams, emphasis on Confucius and other key texts, and objectively absurdly-difficult non-alphabetic language. It’d be awesome if China could show some of the same respect for Tibetan culture as they work to bring in the modern world.
Thanks, it sounds like a hoot! Anybody interested in practicing with me?
Get thee to a monastary, and go 'round back.
Actually, what’s going on in Tibet is irrelevant to the discussion topic, since dharma students don’t go there and study long-term with a lama. The topic refers to issues that come up in students’ relations with lamas in India, Nepal and the West.
OP is asking about how common abusive practices are. He does not specify outside of tibet.
It’s worth pointing out that IIRC only the Gelupa aka yellow hat aka reformed sect does not allow monks to have sexual relations with women yunder the proper circumstances).
The Way of the White Clouds by Govinda is a pretty good read. He was an Italian Tibetan buddhist that was in monasteries in sikkim (?) and Tibet, and chronicles his pilgrimage to Mt Kailas. He also got married at some point. i IRC he was of the Ningma sect aka red hat aka old sect. He discusses sexual relations. also touches on how one of the dalai lamals most most likely a tantric practicioner (i forget which number but was the ‘poet’ DL recognized in his 20’s.
Misstyk - it’s unfortunate you have not had the chance to experience Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet…be great to hear your perspective if you did.
My time in Tibet was among the most amazing part of my life so far.
I have no doubt Tibet is a great experience. Too bad I won’t make it there in this lifetime. What is “IRC”? RE: the Gelugs, and being “reformed”; lots of people tell me that it’s not really true. In fact, I know a now elderly Gelug monk who is far from reformed, but I don’t want to name names. And the Kalachakra Tantra is a Gelug tradition. The esoteric side of the Kalachakra requires sex with underage girls. The fact is that lots of lamas have secret consorts. The secrecy is so well maintainted, that the rest of us had no idea of what was going on. And according to reports, many lamas (not necessarily Gelug) don’t even bother with the secrecy.
Oh, here’s a quote that might interest you, from Judith Simmer-Brown’s book: “The Dakini’s Warm Breath”: “In order to develop inner heat (tummo), under certain circumstances and conditions, one should rely on a female consort as one’s assistant, and this is the meaning of dakini.” --The 14th Dalai Lama
So much for “reformed”. Sorry to burst your bubble; my bubble has been totally trashed. But–now that I know the reality of the situation, I can offer compassion to those who are suffering from these abuses.
P.S. China Guy–you don’t have to take my word for it. Get the Book of Tibetan Elders, look up the two interviews with Ngawang Narkyid, a Gelug monk close to the Dalai Lama. He spills the beans. And if he were to discuss his own life experiences, well you’d get an earful there; I know the guy. I know what all the rules are, the Pali Canon, etc. The fact is that few take their vows or the rules seriously. Maybe it’s different in Tibet; maybe the Chinese have their law-and-order scene together and don’t allow abuse of minors, male or female. Or maybe they’re not able to keep a close watch on these things, because it’s hidden. We don’t know. We may never know for sure about the situation in Tibet. But we do know about the situation in India and Nepal, and in the West, and it’s not pretty. And that goes for the Gelugs as well as the others. Maybe not all Gelugs. But theory and reality are two different things.
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly. I often post from a smart phone and can’t double check facts.
I am sorry that you had bad experiences with Tibetan Buddhists taking advantage of you, hitting on your or worse. Unfortunately, that seems to be no different than any other major religion. Let’s just leave it at that.
If true though, it seems a bit of a double standard with how (say) Catholicism’s abuses get treated around here and in the major media.
Right on, Koxinga; the stuff has not hit the fan yet regarding Tibetan Buddhism. As previously mentioned, a couple of lawsuits have been filed in the US, but that’s all in terms of public flack, and perhaps the occasional article in an Indian newspaper. Mostly it’s private suffering, at this stage, though that’s beginning to change a little.
And this is hardly about me; I’m writing out of concern for so many women who have experienced far worse than I, and I’m also concerned for the boy novices and the girls who end up getting used and thrown away in the secret ceremonies. The fact is that Tibetan monastic culture is inherently violent; abuse of the boys is institutionalized, abuse of girls is ritualized, and abuse of women students is far more widespread than anyone can imagine. Furthermore, there is a class of warrior-monks in each monastery that is charged with hunting down runaway boys and dragging them back to serve out their “terms” until they’re 21. (The warrior-monk tradition began originally back when monasteries had to defend themselves from attack by other monasteries, hundreds of years ago.) Fights are not uncommon, even among reincarnate lamas, especially when the stakes are high, such as when the 16th Karmapa’s reincarnation was being sought out. The reality is far different than the PR. It’s in large part due to the PR of monks/lamas as peaceful, warm-and-fuzzy promoters of compassion that there hasn’t been media attention to the problem. But the Dalai Lama’s office has also been known to control media exposure to any negative side of Buddhism or his policies as well; the gov’t-in-exile has been known to snatch all copies of newspapers or magazines off the stands in Dharamsala that report anything disparaging.
This discussion was initiated by a query about how widespread abuse of women dharma students is; to cavalierly say that the situation is no different than that of the Catholic Church and be done with it – well, I suppose that does answer the question, doesn’t it? So maybe we are done here, after all.
And don’t get me wrong; I’ve been a Buddhist all my life, and an adherent of Tibetan Buddhism since my 20’s. I’m appalled and distressed at finding all this out, as devoted Catholics must be on their side. Not sure where to go from here, but hiding the problem or sweeping it under the rug isn’t the answer. Reforms need to be made, the act needs to be cleaned up.
Unfortunately, I think you might find yourself up against an outlook of “Forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown.”
Misstyk, with all due respect, I think you’re taking an awful lot of hearsay from Tibet as fact. Especially if you’re using Chinese sources, as the Chinese government has a huge bias to discredit and control the Tibetan Buddhist institutions.
How likely is it you’re taking cases of abuse in the US and projecting them as instituionalized and widespread?
No one is saying “well, shit, a small % of Catholic priests have abused minors and therefore all religions get a free pass.” The point is that unfortunately abuses take place far too often in any human grouping. It’s not an excuse but a statement of fact. So to say that there are abuses in Tibetan Buddhism in the international community should not really come as a shocking revelation. What can and should be done to eliminate the abuse is a valid topic. As is trying to determine the extent of the abuse.
My 5 year old daughter recently broke her arm and we went to the ER is Seattle. The male nurse examining her had to call in a female nurse as a witness tnwhen he removed her shirt and put on a hospital gown as part of the eat am. I found that incredibly sad tha this was necessary and even worse thinking about what probably was a widespread problem that caused this policy to be put in place. So, I hope I’m clear that not trying to excuse or wave away what may go on, but it’s clear that this is also a unfortunatey universal human trait than one isolated to Tibetan Buddhists.
The people I knew in the Boulder Tibetan community were willing (and I personally believe naive as hell) acolytes of Chogyam Trungpa.
There was an old thread called Ask the Tibetan Buddhist that I can’t find. His family and he himself teenager were involved with Tibetan Buddhism. I’d like to hear his perspective if anyone has better search ability to track him down.
Edit window passed and some horrible typing mistakes hopefully corrected now:
The male nurse examining her had to call in a female nurse as a witness when he removed her shirt and put on a hospital gown as part of the exam.
I thought I made it clear several times that I’m not talking about Tibet.
Someone on another website said they had interviewed dharma students extensively, and estimates that 98% of lamas are involved in this problem. I find that a bit high; I might say about 80% to be fair. But people are trying to determine the extent of the problem. That’s why I stated early on that every lama I’ve spoken to has come on to me; that simple fact seems to be an indicator. (Silly me; I thought they were celibate!)
Not trying to be snarky but not everyone understands that a monk is not necessarily a lama. And that not all tibetan buddhist sects or orders take a vow of celibacy.
Can you be a little more specific please? Lama is defined as what? Gelupa or all sects? Someone holding a Geshe degree from a monastic institution? A recognized reincarnate? Someone who has reached majority and taken the full set of vows?
Good question, China Guy. I would define “lama” fairly broadly, according to my experience: anyone who presents themselves as a guru or teacher. Not all who do so have Geshe degrees. But I’ve also experienced inappropriate behavior from monks who don’t have sanghas, who don’t teach, except for the occasional university lecture.(Gelug, one of them.) I’m not sure of such persons’ status in the monastic system.
Back to the topic of “What to do about the problem”, and relating as well to Koxinga’s comment about lack of media coverage; one thing that can be done is to heed the Dalai Lama’s call for women to go public with these abuses. I’m surprised he said that, and I respect him for it. But I’d like to see him go farther, and bring about reforms from the inside, to do away with the abuse of minors. Another thing that can be done is already in process: putting up websites that address the problem, so women can be forwarned. Mostly the problem comes up when women get into one-on-one guru-student relationships with lamas. Though some women report assaults in public by ordinary monks as well. (India)
I thought all but the Nyingma took celibacy vows. Then if they marry, they’re supposed to renounce their vows and robes (this is what I’ve read in many sources), but many don’t. I’m told there’s a version of the robed attire that indicates a married monk/lama, such as Sakya Trizin wears. I can’t tell the difference, but people who know more about these details can. I don’t know if Sakya Trizin has given up his vows, some of his vows, or what, but he still presents himself as a teacher, and manipulates his students into sex, according to reports by former students. It doesn’t matter what their relationship is to their vows; if they’re presenting themselves as teachers and authorities, they shouldn’t be behaving this way, especially the head of the Sakya sect! (Like university professors abusing their position of authority. They don’t take celibacy vows, but they’re not supposed to be getting personal with their students.) Maybe you know more about the vows question. But the public assumption is that if someone is wearing robes, they’ve taken celibacy vows. One woman who set up and ran a Nyingma center for 20 years expected the lamas to be celibate. They weren’t. Lots of problems resulted. I guess it’s not even about vows, it’s about taking advantage of people, using people without any concern as to their well-being. So much for loving-kindness and compassion.
While I am sorry your friend went through these experiences, it doesn’t reveal itself as indicative of Tibetan Buddhism in general. Yes, there are people out there willing to use charisma lent to them by religious authority to take advantage of naive foreigners who are in a place without a social support system and willing to suspend critical thinking because they are dazzled by their exoticism. Going to a foreign country and investing your trust in someone you don’t know is an almost sure recipe for something to go wrong.
I’m sure there are countless charismatic Pentecostal preachers doing the exact same thing with newly arrived immigrants, sleazy rabbis getting it on with new Israelis, and Hindu “holy men” sticking their dick in “enlightenment tourists.” The world is full of sleazy people.
Misstyk and Ambu, while I have empathy for your suffering, these people related somehow to Tibetan Buddhism (it’s unclear if they have are Tibetan Buddhist monks who have taken the full vows of celebacy [bhikṣu?]). They clearly were not practicing Tantric Tibetan Buddhist practices but were trying to get a quick piece. Nor were they acting in accordance with Tibetan Buddhist standards of conduct. As I understand true tantric practices, it take years of spritual training with both partners before incorporating the physical aspects. Lama Govinda explains some of this in his highly recommended Way of the White Clouds.
To partly answer the OP, Here’s wiki’s summary on celebacy of different Tibetan Buddhist orders: Lamas who take bhikṣu vows are not allowed to marry.[14] The Nyingma school comprises of a mixture of bhikṣus and non-celebate ngakpas, and it is not unusual for lamas to wear robes closely resembling monastic garb despite the fact that they are not bhikṣus.[15][16] Sakya school does not allow monks to get close to women after they have sons.[17] Gelug school emphasized Vinaya ethics and monastic discipline; Choekyi Gyaltsen refused to wear monk clothing after he married.[18] Kagyu monks are also required to return to non-monastic life to marry.[19][20]
There are also some notable exceptions to celebacy. The 6th Dalai Lama, Tsangyang Gyatso, was not recognized until he was basically an adult. He was known for enjoying women, and most probably also underwent tantric training.