FTR, it’s being reported that Tebow ran a 4.7 40 at the combine. By way of comparison, Colt McCoy ran a 4.79, and that was the fifth-highest for a QB at the time.
Question time, then:
What’s the average 40 time for a TE prospect?
Are there any examples of a QB retooling his throwing action successfully after college? Can’t think of any off the top of my head.
Does anyone give a flying burrito about combine times? It’s crazy that one of the offensive line prospects this year (can’t remember the name) went flying up the draft boards after he ran a “fast” 40. I don’t give a crap that he can run fast, I want to know if he can block.
The top results for the 40 are here. There are more results here and they seem to match up.
The top tight end prospect, Jermaine Gresham, ran 4.73. The fastest ran a 4.40, but he’s a 220 pound hybrid type. Second fastest was 4.56, and then a whole bunch of guys clustered from 4.67 to the high 4.7s. A few ran as slow as the high 4.9s. Averages are tricky, because do you really want to compare your “hypothetical” NFL tight end who’s going to be used as a receiving weapon to the 285 pound blocking tight end who somebody’s going to be using as another offensive lineman in a heavy package? In general, though, 4.4 and 4.5 times are rare results from a tight end, so this year’s results are fairly typical of what NFL tight ends can do.
Does anybody care about them? Sure, although there are lots of people who say what you say about them, too. The thing is, for a lot of players you already think they’re really good and really athletic, and then they run a blazing 40 and you say, wow, damn, turns out he’s even more athletic than we thought. So the numbers on paper can confirm what you already suspected, even for an offensive lineman. They do have to move their feet, after all.
Well, Philip Rivers and Bernie Kozar both threw sidearm in college, and everyone thought their mechanics would have to be retooled from the ground up. Turns out both did/do just fine in the NFL throwing sidearm.
Sidearm is one thing, apparently. They still get the ball out quickly. A long throwing motion isn’t. Defensive linemen love quarterbacks like that. I’ll cite Byron Leftwich as an example.
Last time Tebow was discussed his fans said he is unusually accurate. I don’t know if it is true, I have not seem him play very much.
I don’t get the stress on height. The linemen coming in are 6 ft 6 and they have their arms up blocking the pass. You throw between them ,not over them.
His completion percentage has been about 67 for his career, which is pretty good considering that his wideouts are all tiny little dudes that run 4.3 40s but aren’t exactly going to win many battles in the air.
ETA: That compares favorably with Aaron Rodgers (61 and 66) and Alex Smith (65, 67) who played in similar offenses.
Yeah, it’s pretty slow. And it isn’t just his throwing motion per se that’s the problem. His arm action is bad, but he also loads way up on his back foot, and keeps the ball at his waist and behind him for a comparative eternity. He’s got the ball in places NFL quarterbacks never put it – and that’s on top of the fact that his actual delivery isn’t all that efficient.
His accuracy was obviously sufficient for a spread option that ran the ball the majority of the time, but he was - and I’m trying not to be hyperbolic - almost never making throws anything like an NFL quarterback has to make. His completions were generally to stationary targets, on sprintouts, or screens, or elaborate playfakes. He is not unusually accurate by NFL standards.
Hmmm. I thought Cal ran a spread option. Never is a bit much - Rodgers rushed for 330 yards and 8 touchdowns over two seasons - but your point is well taken.
You might be thinking of Oregon, which went to the spread after Tedford left there for Cal. But Tedford’s claim to fame is making NFL-ready quarterbacks (or tricking NFL teams into thinking they’re NFL ready, in some cases). Wonder what he would have done with TT.
Basically, you’re noting that Tebow runs as fast as a Blocking TE and is as heavy as a Pass catching TE. Not the combo you’re looking for. Look at Tebow’s frame, does he really look like a guy who could bulk up more? I don’t think so, if he adds 20 pounds to that frame that 4.72 40 time will be a long forgotten fantasy. Also, let’s remember that perhaps 3 of the guys in that list will be effective NFL players and maybe 6 will get drafted, if that. The reasons the rest won’t get drafted is their poor speed and small size, which matches Tebow and his is the wrong mix if you’re projecting him as a receiving TE.
Dallas Clark - 6’3", 252
Antonio Gates - 6’4", 260
Jason Witten - 6’5", 263
Greg Olsen - 6’5", 255
Tony Scheffler - 6’5", 255
Brandon Pettigrew - 6’5", 265
Heath Miller - 6’5", 256
Vernon Davis - 6’3", 250
Kevin Boss - 6’6", 253
Jeremy Shockey - 6’5", 251
Visanthe Shiancoe - 6’54, 250
Jermichael Finley - 6’5", 247
Brent Celek - 6’4", 255
Kellen Davis - 6’7", 262
Chris Cooley - 6’3", 250
John Carlson - 6’5", 251
Owen Daniels - 6’3", 250
Fred Davis - 6’4", 257
Todd Heap - 6’5", 245
Marcedes Lewis - 6’6", 275
Zach Miller - 6’5", 255
Jerramy Stevens - 6’7", 260
This is essentially every single starting TE heading into 2010 who who could be considered a receiving TE. No cherry picking from me (thanks for that accusation by the way). Tim Tebow isn’t bigger than any of them. Every single guy listed ran below a 4.7 40 and was within 6 pounds of their current weight at their Combines. If Tebow (a guy as physically developed as anyone in football) were to somehow magically add 20 pounds of weight he’d still be lighter than 2/3rds of the TEs in the league and you can be sure it wouldn’t help his 40 time and it certainly wouldn’t help is height. And let’s keep in mind one thing, just about every player at the Combine is in tip-top shape to run a good 40. Saying Tebow is somehow artificially light and that excuses his size essentially implies that he’s the only guy who showed up in shape and ready to run. The list of players who aren’t NFL lineman who added 20 pounds after the combine can be counted on one hand and those guys are RBs converted to fullbacks.
You made a patently absurd statement, one which is easy to disprove, and got called on it. Accept it and stop deflecting. The fact that you are somehow deluded into thinking it’s a true statement is telling.
Telling of what? I would love to hear what it’s telling you.
Like I said, I’d prefer to drop it, but one more time: I obviously never said that he was currently larger than NFL tight ends. If you want to argue that quarterbacks don’t carry less weight than tight ends and that a college kid who played quarterback isn’t carrying less weight than he could, that’s fine, but really, I made a very simple and pretty uncontroversial statement that he could add some weight and be in the normal range, and that was all I had to say on the matter.
Wait, wait. I hadn’t actually read your post very closely… every guy on that list ran a combine 4.6 or lower? That is just immediately, demonstrably not true, and I don’t have time to check just how untrue it is.
So you know what, what do I even care. I concede. Tim Tebow could never be an above average-sized NFL tight end. It was absurd of me to say so. My main problem is I just love Tim Tebow too much, and it blinded me to the facts.
Fine. I spot checked them the first time, let’s see how many I’m wrong on. Some of the times varied and the information is tough to track down, I can’t vouch for all it’s accuracy. Though I will note that nothing about your statement mentioned speed, you said he’d be bigger, not faster, so it’s just another diversion from your silly claim.
Dallas Clark - 6’3", 252 - 4.68
Antonio Gates - 6’4", 260 - N/A
Jason Witten - 6’5", 263 - 4.67
Greg Olsen - 6’5", 255 - 4.45
Tony Scheffler - 6’5", 255 - 4.54
Brandon Pettigrew - 6’5", 265 - 4.80
Heath Miller - 6’5", 256 - 4.66
Vernon Davis - 6’3", 250 - 4.38
Kevin Boss - 6’6", 253 - 4.74
Jeremy Shockey - 6’5", 251 - 4.58
Visanthe Shiancoe - 6’54, 250 - 4.50
Jermichael Finley - 6’5", 247 - 4.66
Brent Celek - 6’4", 255 - 4.70
Kellen Davis - 6’7", 262 - 4.60
Chris Cooley - 6’3", 250 - 4.74
John Carlson - 6’5", 251 - 4.88
Owen Daniels - 6’3", 250 - 4.65
Fred Davis - 6’4", 257 - 4.65
Todd Heap - 6’5", 245 - 4.68
Marcedes Lewis - 6’6", 275 - 4.80
Zach Miller - 6’5", 255 - 4.53
Jerramy Stevens - 6’7", 260 - N/A
10-year Chargers season ticket holder jumping in here. As a guy who’s seen every game Rivers has played in the NFL, I can tell you he’s not a sidearm thrower. His motion is typically described as “shotput”, and I would actually say that his motion has changed since he entered the league. It’s still pretty similar, but it definitely looks less awkward than it used to.
Having said that, Rivers didn’t particularly need to change his throwing motion, and the Chargers didn’t ask him to. While it looks a bit funky, he’s got one of the best deep balls in the game - check out his stats on YPA and YPC for confirmation if you like - and. more importantly to this conversation, he’s got a very fast release. Tebow’s throwing mechanic issues make his release glacially slow. I don’t know if he can fix his issues or not; but unlike Rivers, his NFL QB Coach will certainly make him try.
I didn’t understand the Jags’ releasing him at all. He had just started to look like he’d make good on his draft stock, and every team in the league has a cokehead anyway.