Tipping makes no sense

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
41

Audrey Levins said:

Which is amusing, given the number of people from cultures where haggling is much more prolific. I have to wonder about the practice of tipping from folks who are from cultures that haggle. Do they tip more, because they are used to negotiating the price, or do they tip less, because it’s left up to them to set the price?

Mijin said:

Yeah, that’s a bit awkward. I don’t tend to tip just for getting handed a paper towel that I could just as easily get from the dispenser. However, the places I’ve seen an attendent also typically have some conveniences like deodorant, mints, mouthwash, etc. If I were to avail myself of those conveniences, I would feel more obligation to tip, because the guy is there to make sure those conveniences are available.

42

I’ve seen this dozens of times. Because I see myself as a decent person, I usually tip over 15% - over 20% if the service is exemplary, well over that if I’m demanding far more than my share of attention. That said, statements like the above make me feel like I’m being emotionally blackmailed, and I resent it.

Nothing at all against TriPolar here: s/he was just the messenger. It’s the message itself that is getting on my nerves. Any restaurant that swears off tips and just charges me an honest price will have my business, all things being equal.

43

I agree with you. I wasn’t trying to use emotional blackmail there, just reminding people we are stuck in this system, and ought to be sure to pay our fair share. I do think 15% is pretty fair already. I tip more because I choose to, but servers shouldn’t assume people have to pay more, and should be satisfied with what they receive. When I was a lad, oh so long ago, 10% seemed to be a common. Now I see restaurant receipts with recommended amounts up to 25%. It’s great when I’m recognized at a restaurant, and the staff begins to throw in extras, but 25% seems excessive.
Have you found any restaurants with a no tipping policy?

44

Oh, absolutely. It’s inherent in the system; we’re all trapped in the discourse. We have a social norm in the US (at least) that says if you only pay precisely what you’re required to, you’re a horrible person.

I’m wondering–does this relate at all to Americans’ notoriously over-indulgent consumer practices? Sure you can spend precisely what you need to, with no extras, but you run the risk of being called a skinflint (or whatever)?

45

Well, my feeling is that most products and services sold are routinely below the capabilities of the producer/provider, and the buyer has no opportunity to pay accordingly.

It’s not blackmail, it’s payment for a service you requested and received. The only difference is that, unlike almost everything else you buy, you are permitted to judge its value after receiving it.

46

That’s an odd position to take.
Most people in most jobs don’t try particularly hard, but if they got a few dollars kickback from the customer (not their employer), they would :confused:

47

I’ve waited tables at weddings when i was younger and franly when I drop $600 on dinner with wine and am expected to drop another $100 on top of that, I can’t help but think… FOR WHAT?

I also used to pour beer in a bar but I think the tipping dynamic in a bar is different.

I recently had a party at a restaurant where the food was served buffet style and the drinks were also self serve. The wait staff asked why I only gave them a 10% tip. WTF. It was a buffet. You didn’t pour drinks, you didn’t serve food, you brought out food on platters and put them on platters and bussed the tables, then you have the nerve to compalin about the $500 tip for two people over three hours.

48

The problem is that tipping has become compulsory not merely a gratuity for good service. It has become a gratuity for not spilling soup on me.

49

If I request a service for which recompense is required, I expect a bill which I must pay under threat of civil or criminal penalty. If I stiff a waitperson, the only penalty is the hairy eyeball. That’s emotional blackmail.

I don’t mind terribly, but it’s by far the least honest transaction most people engage in on a regular basis.

50

Having been raised by a single mother who worked as a waitress for years and having waited tables myself at one time, I ALWAYS tip at least 20%.

Having an issue with the way servers are paid is no excuse to stiff your server…take it up with your local legislature, don’t “protest” by refusing to tip. :dubious:

Waiting tables IS difficult, demanding work. It requires a level of multi-tasking on a par with managing an office (which I have also done) and a level of physical endurance on a par with chasing after a class of 3 yr olds all day (also done) :smiley: In case you ever wonder why your server is sitting down to chat or fold silverware between tasks, you try being on your feet and moving constantly for 8 hrs a day (in case you haven’t)…it’s a job that really takes a toll on the feet (and back).

Wait-staff are paid far less than the min. wage and earn the bulk of their income through tips. That’s just the way it is. It is a slap in the face to give someone good service and find a handfull of pocket change or nothing on the table except for a huge mess after they leave. :mad:

In my experience, it always seems to be the most demanding, difficult customers, the ones who demand repeated visits and extra attention and complain about everything, who fail to tip or tip you with pennies and nickles. (sometimes scattered all over the table or even, a few times, in the dirty dishes!:smack:)

You know who you are…know that the wait-staff dreads having you sit in their station and argues over where to seat you because no-one wants to deal with you!

As for income taxes, as I recall I did not estimate and declare my tip income so much as it was estimated FOR me, and I was taxed on a certain minimum, assumed income. (I could be mistaken as it was a long time ago and/or the codes could have changed since). But I certainly never kept track of my tips all year…no-one does. If I recall correctly, then not tipping also means your server is getting taxed on income they never got.

For me, it is a matter of basic respect to fairly compensate my server, and 15-20% is the going rate, folks…has been for years. If you got less than stellar service, tip 15% (or perhaps consider that the fault might not have been with the server but the management for understaffing, the kitchen for being slow or screwing up your order, or YOU for being a demanding, rude jerk with impossible expectations, and not take it out on your waiter.)

If the service is really terrible and it IS the obvious fault of the server, then it might be acceptable to leave much less or nothing AND bring the issue to the attention of management.

The mandatory tip for large tables is because they require a LOT of attention/time and take the server, and usually more than one server, away from other customers and it is far too common that a table of 12 will order $200 worth of food/beverages, linger for a few hours, then leave a pittance or NOTHING! If you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford to eat out in a sit-down establishment.

It’s no coincidence that I almost always get excellent service wherever I regularly go…they know me and know I tip well (or at all!) :wink:

51

InterestedObserver said:

I have not waited tables, but did converse with a waitress about tipping at the restaurant she worked. She stated that there is an estimated assumed tip amount, but if you keep track of your actual tips you can file that if it falls below the estimated value. She said that she did track and file actual tips. I can understand why most don’t, though. Same reason many people don’t itemize taxes and take standard deductions.

Who determined “the going rate”, how was it determined, when was it determined? I recall when I was a kid the going rate was 10%, then it hit 15%. Now I’m regularly prompted for 18% and I know people who think 20% is the going rate. Why is the going rate creeping up? Why was good service due 10% at one time but now due more? Did good service get that much better?

52

Purely guessing and I could be totally wrong - generally (at least for me) service in restaurants is reasonably good; if it isn’t it is highly unlikely they will see me again. Assuming that is the case for the majority of tippers, you probably run into a situation where everybody wants to give a “little bit extra” on their tip because they had an enjoyable time. However, if a large majority of people feel the same way then that “little bit extra” starts to become the norm, and people then feel that they should give a little bit more extra when they have an enjoyable time. Hence the upward creep on tips.

53

I’ve worked in jobs that require a lot of driving during the job, so I’ve eaten a lot of fast food, an industry which typically does not expect a tip from the customer.

I have found that some fast food restaurants are capable of providing a level of service to the customer above and beyond other fast food restaurants, despite the fact that customers don’t tip at either.

For an example, I find that my service at McDonald’s restaurants varies wildly. Some restaurants have pleasant staff, or gets the order right more consistently, or has shorter lines, but none have all of those things.

Carl’s Jr. seems to get their orders right more often than McDonald’s, but you certainly pay more for that privilege. Is that the system working correctly? We are paying more at the cash register for better and more consistent service?

Then I go to In N Out Burger, and find the most exemplary service. Every restaurant is consistent above and beyond all other fast food chains I have experienced. They never, ever get orders wrong. The employees are amazingly pleasant and pay a ton of respect to the customers. No matter what In N Out I go to, I feel like I get 100% of the attention from each employee I encounter, no matter what.

There’s no Carl’s Jr. or McDonald’s that can make me feel that way.

In N Out tends to cost more than McDonald’s but less than Carl’s Jr. for equivalent meals.

And yet we don’t tip at (these) fast food restaurants.

My point is that tipping isn’t required to encourage employees to do their jobs, and isn’t required to encourage employees to do their jobs well.

I have heard that In N Out pays their employees considerably more than the other fast food restaurants. That makes me wonder why people would choose to work at Burger King or Jack In The Box rather than In N Out where, for the same “type” of work, you get paid more. I’ve never worked in fast food, but I’d have to assume that employees of Carl’s Jr. are fully aware that In N Out employees make more $, but they don’t work at In N Out because In N Out expects more performance from them on a daily basis.

Therefore, those employees are choosing to work less hard and make less $.

Is that the same psychology behind working hard for tips? Do employees who want tips put out extra effort, and those who don’t want to work hard spend their energy complaining about lack of tips, rather than working harder to earn more tips? (Do employees of McDonald’s complain that In N Out employees make more , while at the same time being unwilling to put out the additional effort required to make the additional ?)

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On a side note, there are other customer-service related jobs that are difficult and do not receive tips. I worked in the 80s as an insurance writer. I drove to people’s houses or places of business to write up their auto insurance policies for them. I did no selling, I came in after the sale was made. I filled out all of their insurance paperwork, explained all of the complex things to them, made adjustments for the customer’s benefit after the sales rep oversold them, and hand delivered their paperwork to the filing folks for them. We drove around 200+ or 300+ miles a day, working around 12 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week.

We worked directly with the customers, face-to-face, had to wear a tie and keep our cars clean despite the extensive miles and # of hours we spent in them per day, had to keep high customer service skills and make adjustments for the customers favor - and never got a single tip. I never expected one, I’m just saying - it’s a service we provided face-to-face that was never tipped.

You don’t tip your UPS or Fedex guy but you tip your pizza delivery guy and your milk delivery guy. You used to tip your postman (around the holidays) but I don’t know anyone who does that anymore. I stopped ordering delivery pizza a few years ago when all delivery places started charging a $1.50 or so delivery charge, and still expect a tip.

54

Absolutely, and note that I mentioned in the OP that fast food servers don’t get tips but guys who work in bars do. No-one has even tried to give a good reason why that’s the case, because there is none.

Frankly, the only counter-argument (reason that tipping is a sensible tradition) that has even made me think is the one about tipping reducing the fixed costs of a business.
But on consideration, I don’t think that one works either, as:

[ul]
[li]The wait staff are a small slice of a business’ overheads, so we’re not talking make or break, unless a business is already on the edge.[/li][li]Generally, if businesses are busy enough to pay their other overheads, they won’t get the “benefit”. They just get a perpetual drain on revenues, and overpaid wait staff.[/li][li]Even if the maths do work, what are we saying? That staff working for a business going through a quiet patch should be content to earn less than a reasonable minimum wage?[/li][/ul]

55

A much better solution is that waiters take it up with their employers. That’s what unions are for.

56

I’ve also worked in a convenience store, a petrol station (full service) a casino and two bars, adn I’m against tipping.

57

I don’t think anyone has mentioned Japan. When I went to Japan in 1998, we were told that tipping is considered rude in Japan. If you try to tip a service person (cab driver, waiter, bartender, delivery person) they are either a) confused at the extra money (as in, perhaps you misunderstood the amount to be paid, and they will repeat it), or b) consider it an insult.

Apparently tipping is insulting because it implies that you think that under other circumstances, they would have performed below their call of duty, but this time they performed above it. Japanese employees all like to believe that they perform at the highest level of ability already, they can’t perform at a higher level, therefore tipping is rude.

At least, that’s the way they explained it to us. I was only there for a few days so can’t for sure. One time my friend tried to tip at breakfast at our hotel, but the tip was returned before we could leave. He didn’t speak enough Japanese, and the waiter didn’t speak enough English, for us to take it up further.

58

Mijin said:

Well I did try. But a large part of it is custom, so how good a reason is debatable.

And it has been pointed out that fast food places are starting to add tip jars next to the register. So you won’t be able to complain about that distinction much longer. :wink:

59

Bartending is hard work, on top of serving many people, they have to refill the beer cases and change kegs. The skill level is higher than waitstaff because they have to mix drinks, and there are a lot of different types. Additionally, there is a great responsibility because the bartender often has to make the decision about whether to serve someone another drink, check the IDs of the youthful looking, and double as a bouncer. They may be responsible for inventory and cleaning as well. On top of all that, bartenders are expected to entertain and listen to your problems.

Despite that work load, bartenders are usually only paid the minimum allowable rate (sometimes nothing off the books) and make the rest in tips. I find bartenders don’t consider you cheap if you just order a beer, leave them alone, and don’t leave any signicant tip. They may appreciate a low maintenance customer.

You have been comparing that to someone who’s main skill is asking ‘Would you like some fries with that?’

60

And as people are pointing out, tip jars are appearing in fast food places. Quiznos and Subway, for example. Many coffee shops and mom-and-pop places have tip jars for the people who do no more than move a product from a place out of your reach to a place within your reach (from behind the counter to on the counter). Why am I tipping for that, when compared to tipping the bartender who obviously has more responsibility and job skills?