I second this. Tang Soo Do would translate very well.
Also, keep in mind that all Tae Kwan Do styles are practiced as a sport first and as self defense second. This would fit in with why it is important to talk with your kid about why he wants to train.
Former martial artist here. I studied in a Jhoon Rhee Tae Kwon Do dojo through red belt until I moved away from the studio and could no longer commute. The founding grandmaster still is personally very involved with visiting all the affiliated dojos, and his son is taking over. There is a strong emphasis on safety, and cross training is very welcome there. While they won’t preserve his rank, if he is gifted, he will advance very quickly. The sparring is held off for at least a year. None of these are black belt factories. There is a strong emphasis on personal responsibility and appropriate behavior. It’s a pretty nurturing environment.
Bit of a sweeping generalisation, there are a lot of self defense components in TKD, and it’s the instructors decision whether a lesson focuses on self defense or sparring on that occasion. They don’t always stick to teaching the grading syllabus lesson in, lesson out. I imagine it to be similar to a Tang Soo Do or Karate lesson, but always with a dedicated time for sparring at the end of the lesson.
Also, I seem to remember in a previous thread some evidence was presented to suggest that sports oriented martial arts ‘help’ more in a self defense situation. Not that the technique is superior, just the fact there’s more opportunity to practice it, compared to a style full of eye pokes and groin punches, which can’t really be practiced that much.
True, but when I look at the history of TKD and find that it was founded initially founded to be, “the national sport of South Korea”, it makes me wonder where most TKD schools place the emphasis of their training: Self defense or winning tournaments.
There’s nothing wrong with winning TKD and other tournaments, if that is what you want to do. I just think that TKD needs to be more forthcoming that their style is a sport.
Your next move largely depends on what you and your son want out of the experience of training in the martial arts. If is on the level of sport/hobby then just find somewhere where he can continue to do what he’s doing now in a better environment. However, if you’re interested in actual, real, usable combat skills, then get him doing something else.
I know this sounds blunt, but its the simple truth; what he’s doing now is better than nothing, but not by much, not in the real world. I would investigate judo or mixed martial arts, IF you can find a kid friendly school.
I have had an opportunity to witness a fascinating process; my best friend, and former martial arts teacher, ran a TKD school up until a few years ago, at which point he became disillusioned with the art and started looking for ways to move onto something else. He developed his school into a mixed martial arts school and the change in his students is phenominal; the kids in the classes display real, undeniable combative abilities and two of his adult students just became British champions in the amateur leagues, and are moving onto semi-pro next year. I give you this information because its tangible proof that i’m giving you an example worth thinking about.
I certainly don’t want any part in the ensuing debate as to whether TKD works or not - you’ll find plenty of people willing to wave around one data point indicating its effectiveness! I just think that when it comes to feeling secure in your abilities, its best for that feeling to have a basis in reality.
All the best,
David.
Hi, squeegee. I don’t know squat about martial arts, but I do know that that martial arts school which is right across from the train station in Morgan Hill seems to be very popular and well-attended. And it’s probable that you know of this place already, but I thought I’d mention it.
And the Chinese food restaurant right next door is very good and would be a great post-workout joint, too!
To further IOMDave’s point, if there was anywhere local where I could train in MMA now, that’s where I’d go. I’ve got the TKD blackbelt, had my ego stroked, I’ve tried different arts and found what works and what doesn’t. But MMA just works, it’s all the good bits rolled into one!
Sorry I’ve neglected the thread; I’ve had some work stress to deal with the last few days. I’ll try to catch up.
Actually, I have more than a few gripes about the quality of instruction, and am not sad to see the senior teacher go, entirely aside from the issue that this Titanic is sinking.
See, the reason we joined this school was that my son’s friends went to it; but more so, they loved going there. And that’s because they had a really awesome instructor whom I’ll call Bob. Bob was this big scary looking guy, six-foot-seven, shaved head, and he was just passionate about teaching martial arts. He was the kind of instructor that demanded discipline and and respect, and he got it or else, and the kids (and teen and adult students) just loved and respected him and did whatever he said, on the bounce! Major charisma. And he would totally yell at anyone who was doing slack technique, like the example above about where to hold your hands in a sparring stance. And he was really good about teaching what martial arts is really about; its not about fighting, its about discipline, respect, values, and never giving up. Which sounds corny, but he made you believe it. Those students left class with a bounce in their step.
So, of course, about a year and a half ago, Bob left the school (for reasons not important here, but it was sudden), and its been downhill ever since. The new head instructor was just phoning it in; slacking set in and classes became all drill, drill, drill, with little attention paid to technique. More times than not a black belt volunteer would teach while the senior teacher hung out behind the lobby desk. My wife, who also attended that school until a few months ago, said she left class with less energy than when she came in, where before she felt energized. We’ve essentially been coasting there on inertia while grumbling about this issue; my wife talked to the owner about it, and was given promises that things would improve. :rolleyes:
I think its not at all unrelated that this school’s best teacher (not necessarily best martial artist, but best teacher), who attracted good students and taught well and inspiringly… this guy left and now a lot of students have also. Worst decision the owner ever made.
There’s definitely some of that. I know it would be very difficult to be inept enough to not pass the tests for the lower belts, and I’ve seen nobody at low rank fail a test. I can’t say it doesn’t happen, but I haven’t seen it. I have seen them add more techniques, and grade much more critically as my son has moved up. The tests have gone from 20-30 minute walkovers to hour-and-a-half or more endurance contests, including doing a zillion crunches, pushups, etc at the very end of the test (one of the school minions [who are all black belts] joked to me that this is the “somebody’s going to puke” part of the test). Take that however you will.
My understanding has been that the ‘real’ training begins at red belt, and from then on they actually fail people and tell them to try again in 3 months, or for black in 6 months. I think they’re trying to balance the belt-factory issues (which is definitely there), with having black belt (and above) actually mean something. I do have very mixed feelings about having people train (and pay for the privilege) for 18-24 months or more before the ‘real’ part starts.
The side kick was for the brown belt, the first belt that the school requires a break to advance. The red belt break was the back kick. I understand the next break is a front kick, which I’m told is harder because there’s little wind-up/chamber. But I break boards with a saw, thank you, so take that with however much salt you like.
As near as I can figure out, the Ernie Reyes franchise is it’s own organization, which doesn’t put it in a very good light I suppose. I agree, a good school would evaluate my son’s skills critically when we contact them, and I think this next time, if that happens, we’ll pick a school that follows one of the standard organizations.
Per what I wrote above, the old instructor taught the something very much like the tenets. Since he left, not so much. I very much liked, and now miss, the more balanced emphasis on the non-fighting parts martial arts. Lately they just teach you the right moves to pass a test and advance.
I don’t know if he’s missing the point if he wants a black belt; I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, but the school has been telling him his whole tenure there that a black belt is a great thing – a black belt is a white belt that never gave up! So it must therefore be important! Anyway, I do take your point, and we and he need to figure out what he really wants; I’m not sure he even knows.
Concur.
He should be performing the kick with the back leg, and stepping through into the kick (foot moves from ground behind lead foot, leg extends etc). This makes for an easy break. The back kick is harder, 'cos it’s harder to aim.
As far as I’m concerned, breaking should be done with re-breakable plastic boards that equal the resistance of a human rib (a grey board) or multiples thereof (white is 1.5, red is 2, black is 3, assuming the grey board is one). It should be hard enough that a kid can’t break the board. In both associations I’ve previously trained with, breaking is for adults. Kids get a better test with hitting a heavy bag as hard as possible, not breaking wafer thin plywood.
That way focus is on how good the technique is, not the fact that the board broke. In the vids you posted, that woman’s form is horrible, but everybody cheers because the board is broken.
Regarding the absence of ‘Bob’, it’s most definitely the reason. No matter how good the other instructors technique, if they haven’t got the ability to pass that on, then it’s all for nothing.
Ohboy does this sound familiar. After I’d been there for about 5.5 years, the owner of the school handed over ownership to another guy - not the head instructor, Mr. B. Mr. B saw the new direction the school was taking and bailed. I lingered for nearly a year, being promised that things would get back to normal or at least slightly better soon. It didn’t. I finally just got completely tired of it (and there were some other issues as well), found out Mr. Be was teaching at another school in the next town over, and followed him, wishing I’d done it a year ago.
If one instructor has been carrying a school, and they leave, then the school is done for. Best of luck in finding someplace suitable to fill the gap.
I agree with what you’re saying – the back kick looks harder to me, but the students I’ve talked to there insist the front kick is harder because of the short windup. I have no idea, shrug.
Actually, I have both boards my son broke; they were 3/4" pine, and we supplied them. Not that pine isn’t easy to break, it is, but it’s not “wafer thin plywood” after all. But your overall point is well taken – its about technique, not lumber pyrotechnics.
Actually, that was the woman’s last class, and she quit (and she and the school knew this was her last strike) because of pain in her hips when doing stuff like that; I’m sure the technique was awful, but she was compensating as best she could. Oh, yeah: I’m married to her. 
She and my son went from gold belt through brown together at that school. My son decided to keep going when she quit, and she regrets very much not continuing, but it was untenable for her.
Concur; we should have read the writing on the wall when he left.
Hi, Neighbor! Always good to hear from you, Teela.
I remember that school; we looked at it when our son was 5-ish, and didn’t think the junior program was very good. Which doesn’t mean much now, and it is well worth a second look now that my boy can take the ‘real’ courses. Thanks for bringing that up. And good Chinese is always worth looking for, thanks for the recommendation!
That’s a conversation we need to have with our boy. I think he thinks of it as a sport, but I’m not sure. He doesn’t like team sports much, and we thought he had the potential to be an athlete of some sort, so we pointed him at TKD and he liked it a great deal. I don’t know that he (or perhaps many 10-year-olds) think about doing actual combat when training at a martial arts school. When you fight other students in padded gear, it becomes a bit abstract what “combat” means, especially for a kid. I have seen, when sparring, my boy just dominate some students who were more timid, but I can’t say that means a lot or anything at all regarding real world unarmed combat, and I’m not sure my boy would care that it doesn’t.
I know you mean this in the context of Combat, but I’d disagree very much that there’s no value in his training so far. My son has gotten a lot of confidence, a lot of good conditioning and a good glimpse of what serious martial artists can do. He is fit, he has great flexibilty, and he looks like a little muscle man under that uniform, mostly because of doing the TKD training. That’s worth at least a little credit to whatever regimen the school follows, and its at least something to build on.
You know, I’ve had the same thought, because there’s a recent MMA school that opened in Gilroy, but I know squat about MMA and don’t know how to judge a school of that persuasion (are there associations, accreditations for MMA?). And I don’t know if MMA just means “kick boxing” and includes the non-combat philosophy, in whatever form, that my kid’s TKD school used to teach, and I think this is also important.
Squeegee,
I understand what you’re saying, and yes I was indeed talking within the context of combat. Can’t argue with the conditioning benefits, that’s fair enough. Given the video footage, I’d be inclined to question the “serious martial artists” assertion, but that’s another argument. My main gripe would be about the confidence that your son has gained through his training. What is the source of this confidence? Does it have any origins in a belief that he’s able to handle himself in a fight? Regardless of the non-combative aspects of his instruction, I can promise you that therein lies the source of his confidence.
That confidence is therefore very vulnerable; a real life encounter may well crush it in an instant, and is very hard to deal with, even for a mature adult. I know!
Selling martial arts is fairly easy really; its all about packaging, because laypeople simply do not know what they’re looking at. You see a kid breaking a board with a high kick and you assume that’s impressive. In all honesty, martial arts IS about combat, and don’t let anyone tell you differently. Giving a child a powerful tool and teaching them to be responsible with it is where you get your personal development from. Working with effective combative techniques requires discipline and consideration for your training partners, which translates almost automatically to the people you encounter outside training.
MMA is fast becoming another label that people put on their school in order to attract students, as it is fast becoming one of the most credible fighting systems out there (remember: fighting system does not negate personal development!). It does not mean “kick boxing” but rather a combination of striking techniques, throws, takedowns and groundfighting - the complete package.
If you want to judge a school, go down and watch a class. Do NOT talk to the instructor until you’ve had a chance to watch and reflect on what the students are doing. Effective martial arts IS obvious when you see it - if the instructor has a chance to blow smoke over it you are less likely to be able to make a sensible judgement.
You have an opportunity to take your son’s hard work and dedication and focus him on something with all the same benefits, less BS and ultimately, more useful to him. I know I sound preachy, but I’ve been part of this world for some time now and know how much mis-information is out there.
Cheers,
David.
This is very true, and something to watch out for. There are a lot of genuine MMA schools offering quality conditioning and instruction, a lot of schools who just added “MMA” to their sign out front, and a lot of schools opening up with subpar instruction passing themselves off as MMA to cash in on its current popularity. Research the school and the instructors.
A good thing to look for is if the instructors or any of the students compete in MMA fights. That generally means the right things are happening.
I’m sorry if I’ve insulted you or your wife squeegee, it wasn’t intentional if I have. And yes I was being flippant about the board breaking, but I’m glad you got my real point.
If that technique was a struggle for your wife due to her hips, then she has a genuine reason for not doing it, and the school should have mad her do a different technique, especially if she is in pain and/or physically incapable of correctly doing the technique. Doing the technique the wrong way can be just as damaging.
Another poor teaching indicator here!
What does your son think of the UFC? Maybe you could sit down and watch a few fights with him, see if the idea of fighting in that method appeals to him.
Sweep the leg! Sorry, couldn’t resist.