To all the ignorant people out there - stop making the South out to be some unique villain.

[Kobal2]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

But Texas’ flag was not. It did adopt a confederate flag but that one had no relation to the current design.

Texas is explicitly fucked up every which way, though :D.

[Scylla]

@Jackmannii

Was Lynyrd Skynyrd the band that told us “The South’s gonna do it agin!”? I always wondered what “it” was - another secession? A return to slavery? The land of the boll weevil, where the laws are medieval?True, the good people of the South were known for painting the Confederate flag on virtually anything - cars, horse-drawn carriages, horses, small children, outhouses…

Iet’s a shame when this grand old tradition is being sacrificed for the sake of political correctness.

I went to school in the South so I can answer the question.

What the South is gonna do again is “Rise up!”

I assume it has something to do with baking bread. If you ever had southern biscuits, you’d totally understand.

They make really good biscuits down there.

[Procrustus]

@Shagnasty

As a Southerner by upbringing and a long heritage, I have found it astounding how quickly the rest of the country has turned against the South once again based on the acts of a lone individual.

I don’t think we’re turning on the South because of the acts of one lone individual. When one asshole shot up an elementary school, no one started hating on New England. The South is being turned on for a whole host of things. Look at the people the South elects to Congress. Don’t they have to answer for that? Look at their opposition to abortion rights, voting rights, and union memberships. Sure, there are a lot of good, smart, compassionate people in the South, no one denies that. As a whole, however, they’re more religious (not in a good way), and support most of the worst traits we have to deal with as Americans. Until “the South” stops giving us people like Justice Roy Moore of Alabama and Mike Huckabee of wherever the fuck he’s from, people are going to have some issues with that region.

[Little_Nemo]

@Scylla

I’m not so sure of this. I have no idea what the State flag design committees were thinking when they made their designs. Maybe there are some minutes somewhere we can read.

But let’s say you and I are going to sit down and design the Louisiana state flag today. We are going to want to incorporate cultural, geographical, historical and heritage elements into.

“Put a crawfish on there, and maybe we should put something from the French flag on there to commemorate the original French Settlers, Louisiana purchase and what knot. They were part of the Confederacy, so we put something from the Confederate flag to show that. Oh yeah, and alligators and pralines… Gotta have those.”

It might have gone like that. Granted it might also have gone like

“Dammit, I can’t believe we lost that war. Can’t believe that happened. Shit. Well let’s put all this confederate shit on our new flag to keep reminding us of how he love slavery so that when nobody suspects it we can kind of sneak it back in, you know maybe as a line item on a sewage development bill,mor something. At the very least it’ll remember us to keep those black people down.”

I really don’t know.

Or it could have been “Let’s just make our flag a big ole picture of somebody pouring sugar into a glass of iced tea.”

[Small_Hen]

@Acsenray

Right, the Texas flag was adopted in 1839, 22 years before the Confederacy existed.

The current Texas flag was adopted in 1933. Before it became a state, the Texas flag was a blue background with a yellow “Lone Star” on it. I just looked this all up while trying to find any information that the current Texas flag was in any way related to the Confederate flag (I found none).

[QUOTE=Kobal2]
Texas is explicitly fucked up every which way, though.
[/QUOTE]

East Texas, maybe - I can’t stand Houston. San Antonio, Austin, and Dallas are all fucking awesome, though.

[Scylla]

And, while I’m writing I never really bought into the whole Southern atonement thing or that we need to recognize the legacy or racism in the south, or whatever.

The bottom line is that all of our ancestors constantly did atrocious things in order for us to be where we are now. We have slavery, the crusades, wiping out the Indians, and delivering blankets of small pox to them. If you are alive today it is because you ancestors did bad shit unto others, killed them, took their land, raped their women, etc etc. that’s pretty much the history of the human race.

If you didn’t personally do any of these things, there’s no reason you have to apologize for them or make amends. For all you know the person going on about the sins of the south may be descended from Attilla the Hun. You don’t see him apologizing for that.

The concept of a cultural original sin that you are born with is just as stupid and false as the religious concept of original sin

[CinnamonBabka]

@Scylla

The bottom line is that all of our ancestors constantly did atrocious things in order for us to be where we are now. We have slavery, the crusades, wiping out the Indians, and delivering blankets of small pox to them. If you are alive today it is because you ancestors did bad shit unto others, killed them, took their land, raped their women, etc etc. that’s pretty much the history of the human race.

My ancestors were German. Do I need to describe what are and are not appropriate ways to celebrate that heritage?

[Kobal2]

@Small_Hen

East Texas, maybe - I can’t stand Houston. San Antonio, Austin, and Dallas are all fucking awesome, though.

Dude, I’m French. My resolution’s not that high. All I can see from here are LBJ, Dubya, Ted Cruz and Beyoncé. None of which do y’alls any favours.

[Scylla]

@CinnamonBabka

My ancestors were German. Do I need to get into what are and are not appropriate ways to celebrate that heritage?

We are actually in agreement. Displaying swastikas would not be cool. On the other hand regardless of what your ancestors may or may not have done, you are not responsible and need not apologize or atone for anti-semiticsim that you have not personally committed.

On the other hand, if you wish to take on the moral burdens of the 3rd Reich, be my guest.

I’m just saying that I would have issue with anybody blaming you or asking you to atone for anything your ancestors have done.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

Sure, Scylla and if, just like smallpox and the crusades and indian oppression, indicators of the endorsemenf of racism no longer present for us and if they were not universally condemned, you would have a point.

But it isn’t just part of the past. The battle flag is an endorsement of racism. The Council of Conservative Citizens, a direct descendant of the White Citizens Councils of the past, is still operating, and directly influenced the murder of 9 Americans.

Part of the need for a clear and obvious rebuke of the racist past is to work to reduce the ambiguity that allows this shit to continue.

To suggest that the issue is dead and gone is stupid and offensive.

[Ethilrist]

@Miller

I’m a Californian. I don’t hate you because you’re from the south.

I hate you because you’re from the east.

Northern or Southern California?

@carnivorousplant

Shagnasty, you shouldn’t try to teach a pig to sing.
You waste your time, and you annoy the pig.

As opposed to teaching it to wrestle, in which case you get muddy, and then you realize the pig’s enjoying it…

[CinnamonBabka]

@Scylla

On the other hand regardless of what your ancestors may or may not have done, you are not responsible and need not apologize or atone for anti-semiticsim that you have not personally committed.

I also can’t put a Nazi flag up in my window and expect people to not think I’m an inconsiderate douchenozel, no matter how much I insist I’m doing it to celebrate German heritage and not the murder of millions of people.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

Cartoon: The true history of the Confederate flag

A cartoon on the history of the Confederate battle flag, apropos of Scylla’s crawfish and pralines and mint juleps post above.

[Kobal2]

@Scylla

We are actually in agreement. Displaying swastikas would not be cool. On the other hand regardless of what your ancestors may or may not have done, you are not responsible and need not apologize or atone for anti-semiticsim that you have not personally committed.

On the other hand, if you wish to take on the moral burdens of the 3rd Reich, be my guest.

I’m just saying that I would have issue with anybody blaming you or asking you to atone for anything your ancestors have done.

So let me get this straight.
Say I am a European, good willing, irreverent, playful little scamp (eh, good 'nuff)
Say I choose to wave the Nazi Reich’s flag around because, for me, it represents an intellectually courageous challenging of the current European status quo, pride in one’s nation (regardless of which nation it is), an advocacy for public order [del]and killing all the Jews[/del]. Or any other bullshit you might care to come up with as “innocent” reasons to fly the Nazi fucking flag.
You wouldn’t condemn me for possibly maybe being either a humongous shithead at worst, a complete idiot at best ? Like, *really *?

[TriPolar]

@carnivorousplant

Shagnasty, you shouldn’t try to teach a pig to sing.
You waste your time, and you annoy the pig.

@Ethilrist

As opposed to teaching it to wrestle, in which case you get muddy, and then you realize the pig’s enjoying it…

That is all a bunch of piggery-jokery.

[Buck_Godot]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Both Maryland and Kentucky were question marks regarding allegiance. Maryland was hardly a Union gimmee, and Kentucky was jeutral at the outset of the war.

Yeah, Maryland has its own issues to deal with. I’m hoping that the universal condemnation of the confederate flag will lead to a reevaluation of our state anthem

Dear Mother! burst the tyrant's chain,
Maryland!
Virginia should not call in vain,
Maryland!
She meets her sisters on the plain-
Sic semper! 'tis the proud refrain

…
The Old Line bugle, fife, and drum,
Maryland!
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb-
Huzza! She spurns the Northern scum!
She breathes! She burns! She’ll come! She’ll come!

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@Love_Rhombus

Wait, people actually do that?

They used to, don’t know if they still hold it.

[Bridget_Burke]

@Small_Hen

The current Texas flag was adopted in 1933. Before it became a state, the Texas flag was a blue background with a yellow “Lone Star” on it. I just looked this all up while trying to find any information that the current Texas flag was in any way related to the Confederate flag (I found none)…

The Lone Star’s history goes back a bit more.

The Lone Star Flag was the legal national and state flag from January 25, 1839, to September 1, 1879, and the de facto state flag from September 1, 1879, to August 31, 1933.

In 1933, it became the “legal” flag once again. The Handbook of Texas is a good source for facts. Wikipedia has nice pictures of some of the many flags that have flown over Texas. (The “Six Flags” motif includes the flag of the CSA; the Stars & Bars is generally used, not the Battle Flag.)

The Lone Star flag came long before the CSA.

ETA: An old slave market as historical site?

New York City has a not-so-little secret: About 300 years ago, as the first Dutch settlers docked on the shores of what would later become a metropolis, they brought with them enslaved men and women.

At the foot of the city, in what would later become Wall Street, New York operated its first slave market to buy, sell and trade human beings.

Soon, there will be a permanent reminder of that little-known history.

Remembering the past does not always mean celebrating it.

[Scylla]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Sure, Scylla and if, just like smallpox and the crusades and indian oppression, indicators of the endorsemenf of racism no longer present for us and if they were not universally condemned, you would have a point.

But it isn’t just part of the past. The battle flag is an endorsement of racism. The Council of Conservative Citizens, a direct descendant of the White Citizens Councils of the past, is still operating, and directly influenced the murder of 9 Americans.

Part of the need for a clear and obvious rebuke of the racist past is to work to reduce the ambiguity that allows this shit to continue.

To suggest that the issue is dead and gone is stupid and offensive.

It doesn’t really feel like you are responding to anything I actually said so, to summarize my thoughts:

1. I think the Confederate flag is an inappropriate symbol in this day and age, and unless you are a racist and want to let everybody know, you should not display it.

2. Slavery and racism are bad, and those who practice them are doing a bad thing.

3. There was a time when the Confederate flag was about short denim shorts on hot girls, fast cars, beer, Lynyrd Skynyrd, moonshine, and showing people that you were an anti-yuppie who was fun loving and unpretentious. It meant racist things before that time, and it means racist things now, but there may be some legitimate confusion or backlash by some well-meaning and let’s face it… Slow-minded individuals who’s perceptions are still stuck in 1980s Hazard County. You can see these people on You Tube all the time. Usually under “Redneck fail” They are the ones who attempt to jump their trucks over ravines and are inexplicably shocked when their suspension collapses, tires pop, airbags deploy, and their $50,000 Ford Raptor is destroyed before they’ve made their third payment. We are going to have to be patient with these people.

4. You are not guilty of any crimes you have not committed. You do not need to apologize for anything your ancestors have done, as long you do not do those things, or endorse those attitudes. Everybody has monsters in their ancestry.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Buck_Godot

Yeah, Maryland has its own issues to deal with. I’m hoping that the universal condemnation of the confederate flag will lead to a reevaluation of our state anthem

Yikes! I didn’t realize that we in the North were making Maryland come. I mean, I knew we were good and all, but wow.