They sure as shit weren’t running on a “trust the President” platform, Frank.
Look, do you really think it’s productive for self professed lefties to slap the “loony” label on those who are questioning – many of them with very specific citations and reasoned argument – the actual intent of a document describing emergency management published by an administration that’s consistently argued, twisted and contorted whatever consititutional authority they can to consolidate power in the executive?
Geez, I thought it was just misplaced faith in fair play and safeguards that made you reasonable liberals so doubtful about stolen elections in Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004. But now I think it’s plain inattention to detail and fear of being called nasty names by those scary conservatives.
Rhetorical question here… If you’re willing to consider the possibility of deliberate subversion of the processes of government by some hypothetical administration, but you’re not OK with “kneejerk” skepticism of any real administrations, how would you ever know when actual abuse is being planned?
It doesn’t take trust of the president to see that the fear expressed is misplaced and irrational, at least in this country at this time. Leaving aside completely the arguments about how many angels can dance on the period at the end of an executive order, that fear is actually displaying a mistrust of our countrymen more than of our leaders. It’s a fear that if (or when) Bush declared himself Emperor, the American people would say, “No problem,” and I frankly see that fear as so unrealistic as to be delusional.
You know, if I had to use just one post from the whole of the Dope to show someone why it was the only Board I bother with, this would be it. It sums up the yin and the yang of the Dope better than anything I have yet found. 
Less than a decade ago I wouldn’t have thought the American people would sit still for US gulags, the “unitary executive” theory or the assertion by the executive of his right to enforce indefinite incarceration of US citizens without charges or access to legal counsel. Just sayin’.
Of course. That fear is silly. Bush would never declare himself Emperor. It would be more like one day it would be discovered that he has been using an unknown power to intercept communications between Americans at will. Another day he would assert that he has the power to order torture. Maybe the next week it turns out that he has the power to appoint US Attorneys without any review by the Senate. At some other time, it turns out that he can sign bills and then simply write that he isn’t going to actually do what they say.
If you’re looking for Americans to rise up in opposition because Bush annoints himself Emperor, you’ll not see that. We’re more like a frog slowly boiling in water.
But you missed the part about the American people saying “no problem”. Have you looked at public opinion polls of those things? Have you looked at Bush’s approval ratings? Do you remember the last Congressional elections? Those don’t translate in the American people just rolling over.
And as a follow up, most of the rather sinister things Hentor mentioned (wiretaps, indefinite incarceration of suspected terrorists, torture, Chaney’s marksmanship, etc) HAVE been challenged and slowly erroded. The President (a.k.a. The Smirking Chimp…‘for whom doth the Chimp smirk? It smirks for THEE!’) et al has become increasingly harried on these (and other issues)…because the system has NOT simply rolled over and give Bush a free ride.
-XT
Which ones have been ended? Hell, we can’t even get the primary manifestation of his chimpy decision making - the War in Iraq - stopped. These guys keep showing that if you just don’t do what people think you are supposed to do, there’s little to stop you. For example, many people think that an AG in the situation that Gonzales is in would have stepped down, but that apparently hasn’t occurred to the Bush administration.
Yeah, they’ve been criticized, and they are unpopular, but there’s nothing happening, that I can see anyway, to change their behavior in the least. Iraq is still Iraq (sectarian violence is just as bad as ever), Guantanamo is still Guantanamo, torture is applauded by attendees at Republican debates, wiretapping is a boring issue to people, and it hasn’t changed at all. Signing statements are still signing statements.
What “erosion” are you talking about?
Guantanamo has been investigated repeatedly, and AFAIK significant changes have been made there. In addition the courts have ruled on the whole holding prisoners indefinitely thing…it ain’t gona happen. Already several prisoners have been released back into the wild (or turned over to their parent nations). Torture has ALSO been pretty throughly investigated, and while I won’t claim its completely gone, its certainly a better situation today than it was a year or two ago. Warrentless wiretaps have also been quashed by the courts…again, progress.
:rolleyes: Are you seriously sitting there saying that all these issues are unchanged from the way they were when the stories first hit? That Bush is doing everything his own way with no resistence from the courts, with no flack from Congress or the Senate, with no outcry from the public? Because if you are, there really isn’t any more to say…you are completely out of touch with reality.
Mind, I’m not saying that there isn’t room for improvement, or that Bush et al isn’t fighting a stuborn rear guard action on most of these issues. But to say that there has been zero errosion of Bush’s policies on thos counts is…well, its a fanatics position IMHO. Think what you will.
-XT
Well, Hentor, it seems to me that the US public at large still has faith that the system will correct itself. It might be a painfully slow process, but it will straighten itself out.
At the very least, I still have faith that the current President will not be able to stop the elections in 2008, and a new administration will surely take over.
If Hillary or McCain wins, the “extreme interrogation techniques” will definately stop.
(Dunno about the wiretapping one…)
Look, you just spent a whole paragraph asserting shit right out of your ass without any citations. Detainees have been released completely at the whim of the administration. Show me any that they have been compelled to release. Show me any who have gotten due process because Bush has been forced to give it to them.
You say that “torture has been investigated” - wow, that clears that one up! Perhaps you forgot that when the ballyhooed McCain torture bill was finally signed, Bush simply issued a signing statement giving himself an out.
Just because your limited capacities for interest are sated by the hand-waving doesn’t mean that anything has changed. Someone ignorant of the Christian bias at the Air Force Academy has no ability to claim to competently follow a story through the media. You seem to be a dupe who believes everything must generally be aboveboard, and has to be repeatedly struck with a clue-stick to get that there are problems going on.
You really are simply an unintelligent person who likes to bark for the sake of being oppositional. Your assertion that these matters have notably changed carries about as much informational weight as a paper and crayon rendering from a third grader writing about current events.
Um…like your bullshit statements without citation? Did you ASK me for any citations? Not that you seem to be capable of understanding them, or seeing anything but what your blind partisan beliefs let you. Just your stupid ass assertion that there has been zero errosion of the Presidents policies on the things you stated shows you are one clueless idiot. C’est la vie.
You didn’t really even read that cite did you? Further, you didn’t really understand it…did you? Nor do you see that its a erroding of the former position the president held and that the courts ruled on…forcing the president to try this shuck and jive (and its still unclear that because Bush puts a signing statement on something it actually MEANS anything, wrt the law).
You really are a stupid mother fucking Hentor. Why I waste time with you I have no idea.
Uhuh. I think anyone who actually read the thread is going to realize who it was that made an ass out of themselves on the Air Force thing…and who didn’t. I understood perfectly well the issue…it was you trying to handwave and BS what was easily seen as a bullshit assertion (that you couldn’t resist trying to defend)…and who then backpeddled out of the thread.
And you really are a stupid and fanatical mother fucker who it really is a waste of time to even try and talk too. I THOUGHT there was some hope of having a discussion with you at one time…but its simply not possible.
-XT
The Dems have only been in power for 5 months. Give it some time.
Note that Rumsfeld was kicked out right after the election. As for “Iraq being Iraq”, well Congress gave Bush the authority to go into Iraq, and hasn’t taken that authority away. There is nothing extra-legal about what Bush is doing there. Maybe you don’t remember, but Congress was informed back in January that the NSA wiretap program would not be re-authorized by Bush. The secret CIA prisons in Europe have been shut down, and the tribunal system in Gitmo was revamped. I don’t see that the Dems have been calling for Gitmo to be shut down-- the effort has been put towards cleaning up the process.
As for the applause for torture at the GOP debate-- that was blown out of proportion. The question posed was the famous “ticking time bomb” question, which is an absurd hypothetical.
So you actually agree with the other two-thirds? How nice of you to acknowledge that. Perhaps there’s hope after all.
Perhaps you could tell us, in your own words, what some of them might be. :dubious:
Perhaps you could point out an example when that hasn’t been the case?
Thanks, John that is reassuring. As well, I understand that several actually believe in evolution!
Yeah, well if I were trying to reassure you then I guess that would matter…
Here is where the audience cheered when torture was brought up at the GOP debate. I hear cheering that sounds like it was cut off so that the debate could continue.
I’m not sure if you’re trying to defend Hentor’s thesis here, but I don’t see how that applaus matters in the context of what’s being discussed. **Hentor **is trying to make that case that the applause somehow indicates the American people will sit by placidly as Bush assumes dictatorial powers. The fact is, most people worldwide will answer yes to the ticking time bomb torture question. Even the French fall for that trap:
But if you frame the question differently, you get an entirely different response. Take out the trick question, and you find that Americans are largely opposed to torture, in the sense that most people thought the Bush administration was engaged in:
So, a few wing-nuts at a GOP debate applaud to a trick question about torture. Somehow that doesn’t make me fear that a dictatorship is right around the corner. But that’s just me.