Now, why would I engage to do that with you? I am sure that if my search reveals that I am off by a penny or a dime-you will assert that the gist of my argument is false, and therefore my position is false.
And where did you claim:
How is that even possible --unless you are saying that a 35 year old man is somehow older than a 35 year old woman. How can the man have more years of experience?
Later, when I have more time, I will wander around the Internet to look for cites, but I really dont’ feel the need to do so. There is nothing that anyone can do or say to sway catsix from her never ending quest to bring Justice to the Poor Downtrodden Males of the Land.
Injustice for ANYone sucks–and if men are unjustly accused and found guilty and imprisoned, then that needs to be addressed. It does nothing to negate the argument that women are victims of domestic violence more so than men. Where the feminists (some of them) skewed off was in blaming ALL men(if said feminists really did so–and no, I don’t trust catsix as a source for this). But the discrimination and the domestic violence do exist. I don’t see how anyone can claim credibility and say that they don’t.
I was referring first to cases that go to court, second to cases that do not. As I pointed out, men are awarded custody in the majority of the former, women in the majority of the latter.
not that I (generally) agree w/catsix or want to get into this whole bru haha, but I suspect where she’s going w/that thought is that it is not uncommon for a male to have a fairly linear career path (ie each job progessively more important with little or no gaps), whereas it’s not at all uncommon for a female to have gaps due to childbirth necessitating either career stall or backsliding.
note that I’m not arguing the positiion, just thinking that’s where catsix gets the concept that the males (generally) would have more experience w/o it being strictly sexist.
it is, however, difficult to argue that other factors being the same that mostly males would be so qualified while mostly females would not be (the same way that it’s difficult for an employer to claim to not discriminate that it’s just the quality of applicants that mostly whites or mostly males qualify).
For the record, the American Academy of Pediatrics" (mistakenly called the “American Pedatrics Association”) does NOT endorse circumcision, and haven’t since 2005. Cite here:
Also, I’m a feminist researcher. I’m proud of that fact. Being a feminist doesn’t mean I’m anti-male; on the contrary, “feminist research” is the examination of the patriarchal system on the lives and circumstances of both women AND men. Nor does it ignore issues like race, class, religious or cultural beliefs; to do so would be like blinding yourself and trying to be an art critic.
A few points here:
Domestic violence is a complex subject. Here are some good stats on the issue from the American Bar Association:
I certainly won’t saying that female-on-male violence is by any stretch acceptable, but the stats do show that women are much more likely to be victimized than men in similar situations. And if anyone suffers the illusion that women just “don’t do that”, look at the stats on same-sex relationships and elder abuse.
I also would like to point out that the reason domestic violence is targeted toward women is that during the time shelters were being organized (70’s to early 80’s) women had extremely little financial means in order to leave a batterer. Men could literally walk away with all the money and assets; their spouses could not.
Nonetheless, the key issue from a feminist perspective is NOT “which gender suffers more?” but rather “why is violence perpetrated in intimate relationships to begin with?” This includes child abuse and elder abuse along with spousal abuse.
Also, women in America consist of 57.2% of the impoverished population, disproportionally Latina or African-American (this gender disparity, BTW, is consistent world-wide. In fact, almost 1 out of every 3 Latina or African-American women live below the poverty line. Is this a feminist issue? You bet. Is it always only female-focused? Heck no. A good question from a feminist (yes, feminist) perspective is how does the increasing incarceration of black males affect poverty among women?
Feminism as activism is about equality between men and women. Feminism as a philosophy is about the impact of the patriarchy on BOTH genders. Rename it “gender studies” if you want; I actually prefer that term but I still call myself feminists. Women globally get the short end of the shaft. The mission of the activist is to not decrying victimhood; damn near all activists I know are putting time and money into rectifying this situation.
Feminism is to sexism like African-American pride is to racism.
No, I can’t find it–can you give me the post #?
If catsix means to take into account the “lost years” of childbearing, she needs to state that clearly. That does not explain the reduced wages for those women who do have kids, though.
I’m in the middle of a bunch of stuff here, so I’ll have to get back to this.
And, rayh I doubt that those cites, will be acceptable to our catsix --one of them is from a feminist source! The horror! Thanks for the info, though–the Canadian source was particularly depressing.
If you can’t take a cite from the United States Department of Justice Bureau of Statistics and read it for yourself because it came from me, then I have to conclude that I am not the one with the problem here.
So are you conceding that you cannot prove your claim of fact and withdrawing the claim?
Perhaps by not taking a year or two or five off to have kids?
So then you are going to attempt to prove what you claimed?
Also you’ve got a lot of areas where women are relative newcomers and therefore haven’t been in the field long enough to gain 20 years of experience in significant numbers.
Of course, there are also fields where you’ll find very, very few men with 20 years experience, such as nursing.
Doesn’t say anything about methodology, so it’s impossible to tell if experience, qualification and hours worked are actually equal. It also says that women are more likely to be promoted than men.
Again, you’re talking about ‘average white man’ vs. ‘average minority woman’ and not two people with equivalent positions, experience, hours worked and qualifications.
Again this doesn’t factor for equal experience and seniority in equivalent positions.
A case that hasn’t been settled yet, and no finding of fact has been made?
Then prove that such reduced wages exist. Stop shirking and dodging.
None of them took into account the things salary is based on: the productivity of an employee, the experience brought to the table, the seniority achieved, or whether the employee was full or part time. It also does not show any control for regional differences in pay. For example, if a female systems administrator in Pittsburgh earns less than a male systems administrator in NYC with the same working hours, experience, qualifications and seniority while working in a similarly sized office, the male in NYC is going to make more because he lives and works in NYC.
Something we can all agree upon! Of course, it’s also cool to be smart and feisty and competitive and independent while dressed in that skimpy clothing
Won’t someone please think of the geeky guys?
As for the direction this discussion is taking overall, I have to wonder whether the mythical man-hating feminists aren’t somewhat analogous to Political Correctness… that is, they may occasionally actually exist, but for every actual confirmed sighting of one, there are thousands of pages of panicked prose discussing them and fretting about them and mocking them. This is particualrly likely to be true with a complicated situation like this where it’s easy for a non-man-hating feminist to say something that can be taken out of context, and where young and passionate people who are first learning about the world can get way too into things and take them way too far, and so forth.
Now, it’s possible that I’m just wrong about this, but one of my cousins is a radical feminist lesbian living in Berkeley, and I know both her and her wife well enough to know that neither is a man-hater. And in fact I attended their lesbian wedding and met many of their queer friends, all of whom were as nice as could be to me (a guy), not to mention both of their fathers, her brother-in-law, etc. And if radical lesbian feminists in Berkeley aren’t man-haters, who is?
So while there may be some people who do fulfill the stereotype, I think that the vast majority of feminists, past and present, are NOTHING AT ALL like the shrill caricature that is being painted of them.
Oh, and Catsix, I disagree with just about everything you’ve said, but in particular you seem to be completely dodging one issue, which is whether you should thank past feminists for the fact that you can go to college. And your contention that you shouldn’t is baffling to me. You succeeded in college because (a) you were smart and hardworking, and (b) women are allowed (even encouraged!) to go to college these days. If (b) were not true, it would take a pretty preposterous amount of (a) for you to have succeeded. Thus, your success is due to BOTH your own talent and hard work and the changes that have been wrought in society in the past 150 years or so, largely by feminists. Tell me where I’m wrong…
I asked her that once and she informed me that it was actually due to the MEN in Congress who so graciously gave us the right to vote, completely on their own, with no lobbying from feminists ever.
catsix -you really are a bully. Is this nasty tone neccessary? I bet you’re great fun at parties.
Here is a nursing cite-- a profession where men are in the distinct minority.
Men can and do face challenges in nursing and not just from within the industry. But that is a tale for another day.
here Scroll about half way down, look for the phrase “sexual disparities exist”.
and hereLook for “more is more” about half way down.
I suck at coding, so I hope those work. Nursing is a female dominated profession-men comprise about 5% of the workforce, women the other 95%. But they still make more, overall. The excuse that women haven’t worked in the industry long enough to achieve experience does not fly here.
Why is that? The male nurse who graduates with overwhelmingly female class enters a job market that is the new grad’s dream. There is a shortage. Hospitals are competitive.
Now it is true that men tend to end up in the higher acuity areas, and therefore are compensated accordingly. But here’s the rub: those men share those areas with many women–I am talking staff nurses here–not managers or advanced practitioners. ADN, BSN, diploma–there is very little difference in starting salary for acute care for any type of RN. But, the salaries are not the same for men vs women.
This has turned into a tiresome thread of catsix taking on all comers and crowing that she has left them bloodied. I find this boring and a waste of time.
Somehow I suspect that the research will be found faulty, the methodology flawed, the results biased, the studies too dated. Whatever…
I don’t think anyone other than me deserves the credit. You seem to think I care whether I was ‘allowed’ or ‘encouraged’ to go to college. Why? You can’t prove that the only reason I went is that someone else made it possible. You can’t possibly prove at all that I wouldn’t have done anything I had to in order to get where I am.
Don’t tell me that ‘I couldn’t have done it without…’ unless you have proof.
I don’t need anyone, man or woman, telling me what I couldn’t have done it without. You don’t know that.
More here, if you don’t like these. From the Centers for Disease Control (IPV = Intimate Partner Violence):
Nearly 5.3 million incidents of IPV occur each year among U.S. women ages 18 and older, and 3.2 million occur among men. Most assaults are relatively minor and consist of pushing, grabbing, shoving, slapping, and hitting
In the United States every year, about 1.5 million women and more than 800,000 men are raped or physically assaulted by an intimate partner. This translates into about 47 IPV assaults per 1,000 women and 32 assaults per 1,000 men
In 2002, 76% of IPV homicide victims were female; 24% were male.
A national study found that 29% of women and 22% of men had experienced physical, sexual, or psychological IPV during their lifetime
Studies show that for low levels of physical violence, men and women self-report perpetrating physical IPV at about the same rate. However, a common criticism of these studies is that they are generally lacking information on the context of the violence (e.g., whether self-defense is the reason for the violence)
The National Crime Victimization Survey found that 85% of IPV victims were women
In addition, the CDC recognizes these risk factors for domestic violence:
Risk Factors for Victimization, Individual Factors:
* Prior history of IPV
* Being female
* Young age
* Heavy alcohol and drug use
* High-risk sexual behavior
* Witnessing or experiencing violence as a child
* Being less educated
* Unemployment
* For men, having a different ethnicity from their partners
* For women, having a greater education level than their partners
* For women, being American Indian/Alaska Native or African American
* For women, having a verbally abusive, jealous, or possessive partner
Let me reiterate that I don’t really want to argue about who gets hurt more. Knowing WHY people hurt people they supposedly love in the first place is by far the most important question we can ask.
I note that they didn’t attempt to control for those ‘units that pay more’ or between ‘managers/supervisors/administrators’ and rank-and-file nurses.
So, in this case, it’s suggested that a major reason why men might be paid more than women is that they ask for it, and women don’t. Is that the result of sexism, or are women capable of asking for more money yet just not doing so?
Then present something that isn’t easy to pick apart.
mojave, your cites contradict themselves. In one instance it says that 85% of the victims are female, but if you go by the 47 women out of 1000, and the 32 men out of 1000, that means that out of every 79 people who are victims of domestic violence, 40% are men.
I encourage you to read the CDC link as to why there are discrepancies in reporting. It’s actually quite illuminating in terms of domestic violence towards both men and women. A huge part of the problem for both genders is underreporting, and my educated guess would be that men underreport more than women out of embarrassment or shame.
To sum however, the first cite is from a survey done with 8000 men and 8000 women, whereas the second is from The National Crime Victimization Survey. I haven’t had a chance to read the first survey thoroughly, but I will when I have some down time.
