This used to be about whether you could be held responsible for what other people who were members of a group or supported the group did, not the official policies. So if there are racist Republicans somewhere, that means all Republicans are racist.
Have you abandoned that argument? If so, great.
If I don’t get a chance to respond, have a nice weekend. Get out more. Meet people. There are decent, honest Republicans all around you, and many even disagree with their party about some issues, like gay rights. There are even gay Republicans. Maybe you’ll meet some.
Also, FYI, right now on some rightwing board, a rightwinger is saying that liberals and Democrats are evil, and that you can’t name a single Democrat who isn’t. And that’s just as stupid.
I’m not lance, obviously, but as I (a decidedly non-prominent Republican) have come out against those things, I thought I’d give it a shot, in the person of Jon Huntsman.
I have never claimed “If there are racist republicans somewhere, that means all Republicans are racist”.
I would appreciate you not outright putting words into my mouth with “Have you stopped beating your wife?” style questions, especially when you refuse to answer any questions aimed at you.
My claim was that if you join a group that is full of racists, and don’t in any way challenge them, and even help them achieve their goals, you’re bad.
My claim is that if a racist member of a group is celebrated, welcomed, liked, etc, even though their racism was clear and known, then that group is tainted.
My claim was that if you join a political party that has bigotry as one of its STATED GOALS, I will assume you are a bigot until you prove otherwise, and “Oh, no, I’m not really a bigot” is not proving otherwise. You have to act and PROVE you’re not a bigot if you’re going to join a group with bigotry as a goal.
These DON’T apply just to right wing groups. If you want to be a group of civil rights activists who hold up Susan B. Anthony as an idol, I’m going to get the fuck away from your group because that’s gross as hell due to her extreme racism, and throwing some people under the bus in favor of others.
You can? This worries me, as a registered Republican. Can you provide the portion the current platform that advocates a view that humans can be divided in races with shared traits, that they can then be ranked as superior or inferior, or that members of different races should be treated differently?
I knew about Jon Huntsman, however, I didn’t know he had come out against ALL of that - I expected him to only hit about half the list. I will apologize, and agree I was being too sweeping,.
I do however want to point one thing out, quoted from wikipedia:
Dude doesn’t even want to show up to the republican conventions anymore and speaks to it with a “we”. It really feels like the only reason he’s still a republican anymore is that it doesn’t matter, due to him joining a non-partisan group. That does not bode well.
Sure, like myself, Huntsman will probably be leaving the Republicans if they don’t change. That’s to be expected, though, when you ask for someone who’s criticizing his fellow party members, it’s going to be a disaffected outsider.
Thanks for reading and acknowledging that he’s a prominent Republican (for now) who has come out against all that stuff, though, it took a while to put together.
Reagan’s supply side economics failed, Bush Sr’s trickle down economics failed, the George Bush tax cuts for the well off version of trickle down failed, but the Republican party still “believes” in the policies. The panama war was a joke, the nicaraguan war was a joke, the Afghan war failed in every aspect from capturing the Taliban to rebuilding ( except for the drug lords ), and the Iraqi war failed and costs are estimated to reach three trillion with disability claims, etc. Republicans still “believe” in those policies and decisions. What is the glue of the Republican party other than a belief that poor people are poor because they do not work, homosexuals are decadent ( Bush Jr ’ s winning issue), the militery solution is always best ? At what point do these blind beliefs become a character flaw?
OTOH that is an example of “the exception that proves the rule”, IMHO there are still many moderate republicans and independents that are not aware of how extreme the current crop of Republicans is, they are now up to the point of disposing the few moderate ones or to make them irrelevant.
Even when there is a need of reaching for minorities, crap like this is what we get from the group as a whole:
So, it is not just party before country, but it is even the party that is altering the character that they claim to have.
Yes, you should be worried that the party you belong to is unabashedly racist, has racists in its leadership positions, and cater to racists for votes. If you haven’t heard about their immigration policies, maybe you should read up
I’m just going to use this as an example where someone unintentionally used a slur for the Democratic Party. That and the fact that doing so unintentionally is not a big deal.
Human Action, are you going to accept my evidence for racism? Of the scale of racism in post #6, which ones would you accept and which ones would you not?
I must have overlooked the evidence. I asked you for the portion of the current Republican platform that advocates a view that humans can be divided in races with shared traits, that they can then be ranked as superior or inferior, or that members of different races should be treated differently. The closest you came to answering that in the subsequent post was a reference to immigration policy, so I asked what in the immigration policy was racist, to no avail.
If you’re saying that the racism doesn’t appear in the party platform, including the immigration policy, but can be demonstrated in other ways, that’s fine, but you should say that, instead of shifting gears like this.
I’ll run through them, though some sort of firm definition of “racist” might be in order first. I gave one above, and will apply it unless you see fit to substitute a different one.
Nope.
Well, if they don’t express it, it’s rather hard to know.
Same problem here.
This one’s unclear, how can they be both openly racist and not expressing their racism?
What I’m trying to do is avoid offering clearly racist behavior and attitudes by Republicans, and have you come out and say it doesn’t count, there’s not enough, etc. To me the evidence is clear, but to you, it may not be convincing. Just trying to figure out what you would deem acceptable evidence so we don’t go through this again 10 posts from now
Anyways, it doesn’t look like you’d care for my evidence when you responded “Nope” to my contention that “When the majority of a group are of a particular bent (lets just use racists as the example) are racist and express it openly”. If racists are the majority, you still don’t call the group racist. I guess you are one of those all or nothing people, I’d have to prove 100% of the GOP are racists for you to even consider it. That’s a fight I’m not going to bother having because its impossible. I will, however, continue to refer to the GOP as a racist party because they are and you can continue to search for that elusive 100% confirmation
That’s sensible. I gave one possibility already: a party platform that advocates a view that humans can be divided in races with shared traits, that they can then be ranked as superior or inferior, or that members of different races should be treated differently.
You seem to agree that there is a different between a racist organization, and an organization with racists in it, based on post #6. I submit that the Republican Party is the latter. While you seem to feel that some of their policies (such as immigration policy) is racist, (that is predicated on a a view that humans can be divided in races with shared traits, that they can then be ranked as superior or inferior, or that members of different races should be treated differently), that’s not at all self-evident. The policies of the Republican Party are not racist on their face, I invite you to show me otherwise.
Oh, I must have misunderstood. “Nope” meant that that criterion didn’t apply to the Republican Party. On re-read, I see how that was unclear. My mistake.
Things need not be so clear cut as to specify distinctive lines between races. The fact that the GOP have demonized other races and held themselves up to be some model of American exceptionalism, given their history of division, their callous attitude towards minorities, proves to me that they are racists. They don’t have to come out and say “We believe the white race is superior to all others” for me to infer from their actions
In fact, the party platform is the worst place to look for these divisions. While they may hate other races, they still want their votes and a platform speaks to a national public strategy more than individual members doing racist things in their own districts.
And I believe that it is both, the GOP is both a racist organization and an organization with racists in it. My view isn’t predicated on your criteria of clear dividing lines between races but on policy, things they talk about, and the way they are exercising that power.
You may disagree, but part of being racist can be subtle, like supporting a policy that disproportionately affects a race. Voter ID laws being pushed by the GOP is a huge part of that. You can say its targeted towards Democrats or the poor, but when a majority of those targeted are minorities, then its not an “or” issue, its an “and” issue, meaning the policies are not just politically motivated or racist, they are politically motivated AND racist
Anyways, so that I don’t turn this post into a novel, there’s a wonderful little thread over in the Pit detailing all of the nakedly stupid ways the GOP has used their power. Browse any page there and you’ll find something racist. Pay especially close attention to how they treat Obama, especially when the subject of his birth or family comes up. Immigration is another one, the GOP can’t seem to talk about this without saying something racist about foreigners. Somebody has calves the size of cantaloupes and its not a white guy! Or maybe it was the time they “accidentally” claimed that Rosa Parks eliminated racism. Or the bumper sticker before the 2012 election that asked people to not “re-nig”. Or ask any GOP about welfare and see what race the example of a welfare taker is (or just ask Rick Santorum about his experience with lazy “blah” people). Or say “thug” and see who they point to as an example. Or how about the fake outrage over the not-so-new Knockout game perpetrated by black youths on vulnerable white people.