Toddler wars

They have begun. The precious semi-animate carbon blob has evolved into a proto-human with a will and drive of its own, yet without standard safety protocols or, apparently, a user-serviceable ‘off’ switch.

The war has opened on several fronts, thought we’re doing our best to focus on priority areas and executing strategic retreats elsewhere. For example, there were some minor skirmishes as potty training began, but thanks to Dopers we established strategic no-fly zones and a DMZ, so it’s at an impasse until a peaceful solution evolves on its own accord.

Another area stems from his decision that the last place he wants to sleep is in his bed. He loves it, and ever since we replaced the gravel with old straw and crumpled newspapers it’s very comfortable. But no, he’ll play and jump on it, but he wants to sleep on any other surface but the bed (he once decided he’d sleep on the wall). Fine, have at it. That’s a needless battle.

But sleep itself? Those lines have been drawn. He used to go down between noon and three and after seven thirty to eight—but it seems that a few weeks ago hiberfil.sys got corrupted. Now? No matter what we do, he bounces up out of bed (floor) and runs around as soon as we leave. We tried taking things out of the room, but to no avail. Runrunrunrunrunshoutshoutshoutshout… he naps are down to an hour or two, and he’ll routinely stay up until ten or eleven.

The war is not lost, but the battle rages on. Relevant link.

The other front is just starting to open—food. He somehow got it into his head that to maintain energy levels at toddler maximum he needs to load up on carbs and protein. If it weren’t for a penchant for meat, the boy would love living in a Dickensian dystopia—nothing but gruel from morning to night. Though he does love fruits of all sorts, but not a big fan of carrots. Or broccoli. Or lettuce. Or peas … you get the picture. Our state department has sent raw, cooked, seasoned, plain, puréed and many other combinations, but to no avail.

So far it hasn’t turned into a hot war. We get as much into him as we can through diplomacy (do you want to watch the Daily Show?) and covert ops (sneaking things inside other foodstuffs, stews), but things are starting to break down.

Though we try and maintain a pacifist outlook, we’re about to launch the first strike. Pull all proteins and carbs down to about half to a third the food we put in front of him—all else will be vegetables. We’re hoping to win over Hungry as an ally. We don’t think he’ll permanently damage his systems as he holds out for more non-vegetable matter. What’s stopped us so far from giving the ‘go’ order is the threat of his sonic weaponry and occular-based chemical resources. One threatens sanity; the other affects the civilian population to weaken overall resolve.

So that’s it in a nutshell. I assume other Dopers would like to share their war stories—successes and defeats. Of course, non-parents will have the best answers; I know I did pre-Dudeling.

Yeah, I’m afraid to post in the “parenting fails you’ve witnessed” thread because frankly, I feel like most of them are my own.

At 13 months I may be jumping the gun with a lot of things. Mimi throws food on the floor and I don’t know if I should turn it into a discipline issue or not. Ditto with rejecting certain foods; she’s a trooper about tasting things and if she rejects them, maybe she just couldn’t chew them up. Or maybe she’s not hungry. She seems to have a small stomach, because if I try to coax something tasty into her after a (seemingly) small meal, she often throws up.

We took her pacifier away on Friday night. Unfortunately on Friday night she also came down with a head cold, developed a cough from her previous cold, and started teething her first molars. I won’t back down on the pacifier removal but it has* not* been pretty. Once again, am I being too hard on her? Does Mimi have a mean mama?

And gee, I really want to buy some cute Fourth Of July clothes for her while the selection is good. But gee, she has a lot of clothes already.

And why does it have to rain all day for consecutive days? WE NEED TO GO OUT.

The way we handled bedtime when my son was that age was instituting the laying down rule: he can talk to his stuffed animals, sing, whatever, as long as he was horizontal. But sitting, standing up and getting his feet on the floor were out of the question. We would put him in there and give him a few minutes (I think we started with 30-90 seconds), then take a peek. If he was sitting up or otherwise vertical we explained that if it happened again, we would lay him down ourselves. He hated that - he wanted it to be “his turn.” Then we’d check again in a few minutes and if he hadn’t listened, we’d follow through calmly (to the tune of much shrieking, but hey - he was warned). If he listened, we’d smile and give him a thumbs up and leave, then come back in increasingly longer increments. It took an hour, maybe two, the first few days, then slowly decreased over a period of weeks, but it worked.

As for the food, serve the fruits & veggies first. I often set out a small plate of cut or steamed veggies and sliced fruit and call everyone to the table. Everyone generally starts munching. That also gives me time to finish cooking the rest of the meal, which follows in about 5-10 minutes.

Another thing you can try with the food - learn to spin it and/or let them play with it. In our house, broccoli florets are monkey trees. You can set them up very neatly in an avenue of mashed potato, then eat the monkeys whole by chomping some broccoli. And everyone knows that carrots turn you orange and drinking your milk changes you back.

One other thing…we have a “no-thank-you bite” policy in our house. If I serve you something new, you must have a no-thank-you bite. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to eat it. If you do like it, awesome - have as much as you want.

If I serve fruit first what we get is whining about having to eat anything else. I think our oldest might die of scurvy if it wasn’t for fruit- he’s four and is heavily into ‘picky’ right now. His diabetes means we can’t do the Starve or Eat what we Give You, Dammit, routine that I was planning. He prefers starch or protein, too.

Sattua, as I understand it, when they’re that young they’re either playing look-gravity-works with their food, or look-Mommy-gets-mad! and both are fun games. I never could make a kid under eighteen months understand much about rules.
There’s a lot of parenting fails around here right now, because of four kids under five and no sleep. They’re all still alive, which is my goal, especially with the babies.

He’s four?! :eek:

You mean these kinds of things are going to last for years?! You mean we’ll have to wait until he’s a teenager for him to be calm, rational, and well-behaved?

Rhythmdvl, you poor bastard. (Great OP, BTW.)

Oh man, Rhythmdvl, I’m glad we’re not the only one to have this phase change. Did this happen almost overnight for you? We had this sweet biddable daughter a month ago, and now suddenly (and I think this really happened within a week or so) bedtime and eating are all total conflict zones. (And yes, most of the time she wants to sleep on the floor. We’re just not having that battle right now.)

This is genius. I’ve tried it with “getting out of the room,” with some success, but clearly I should extend it to being horizontal – I’m pretty sure she wanders around the room in the dark when I’m not around. Thanks for the advice.

We also do these two things in our house. I actually require the Little One to eat at least a couple of bites of veggies (and only veggies she’ll actually eat, like broccoli-with-cheese; other veggies are optional) in order to get to the good stuff (carbs carbs carbs), under the theory that if she’s hungry enough she’ll eat the veggies. Lately, though, she’s been just not eating very much for dinner and filling up with cereal at breakfast (where, because I’m half awake, I’m less strict about the fruit/veggie-before-carbs rule). Sigh.

I’m told it gets better around age 5? Is this true?

Hahahahahahaahhahahahaha!

The four-year-old was relatively easy at two- a good eater, no tantrums. When he ht three he went psycho. I started a thread and got lots of reassurance. I’m told five is nice. Four is definitely better than three. He goes to bed without much arguing, and he’s starting to be able to reason, sort of. It helps.

Our two-year-old is starting to turn into a whiny, clingy pain. An adorable clingy pain, but still. We incarcerate kids in cribs until they turn three to avoid the getting-out-of-bed sleep battles.
The three-month-olds are lovely and stay put. I like that in children.

My kid turns two in (checks calendar) about a month and a half. The toddlering has already begun. This month, my main weapons are distractions, namely iPad photo albums of Gorillas and School Buses. My best tactic in Food Wars is Not Offering (because offering always gets me a “No,” no matter how hungry he is or how tasty the offering might be).

I’ve probably said this before, but overlyverbose, I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

ETA: Lissla Lissar, I not only bookmarked but actually saved that psycho thread as a PDF and was just re-reading it last week.

With regard to the nap time, are you transitioning him well enough? Kids hate naps because they’d rather be playing. If you give them play time before the nap and continually tell them “5 more minutes 'til nap time,” “3 more minutes,” “one minute,” etc, they won’t regret having to leave their toys behind so much.

You probably already knew that, though. Just a thought.

If you’re referring specifically to the food thing, I have to say IME this is true. However, I’m sure like all parenting principles it’s also a load of crap depending on your mileage!

My oldest was THE worst eater. Honestly, she was picky and unadventurous and worst of all just so damn sloooooooooooooow. The size of the bites she took would have to have been seen to be believed. Seriously, it was painful. Ours is a really foodie house and meals with her just sucked any enjoyment out of eating, I swear. We tried everything we could think of. She has always been so good and compliant in all other areas of life though, so we had more or less decided that this is just the battleground she’d chosen.

She’s five now, and I have to say she’s very nearly a pleasure to eat with. This evening for instance we all sat down together to eat home made fish pie, that is, fish in a cream and cheese sauce with a mashed potato topping. She ate a full helping and asked for more. It’s difficult to explain how significant this is - until very very recently she wouldn’t touch any food mixed with any other, even if she loved the individual components - no sauces, no mixes, just dry individual components served lukewarm.

I don’t know if it’s the school influence, if our patience (hah! what patience?) wore her down, or if she’s just matured enough to deal with food, but whatever it is, I’m grateful for it. Luckily her 9 month old sister doesn’t seem to have chosen the same fight - she happily shared in the fish pie tonight and seems to love food - so long as it’s not pureed at all!

In my experience, the food and sleep issues sort themselves out in general, but then you get other issues. Someone once told me that any problems you’re having now are always replaced by new ones. They were right and it sucks. Now we have, “I know it already” and “I’ll do it, but first…” It’s irritating as all get out and I find myself sounding more and more like my mother, which is even worse.

emmaliminal, that’s the nicest thing I’ve heard all day.

A couple more things…my daughter just turned two and a half. I’ve found with her the toddler wars came on much more quickly than they did with her brother since she had a role model. It’s easier to handle with her because I’m not as uptight as I was the first time around (I refer to her in private as my “do-over” child), but it would’ve been nice to have had a bit longer break.

Also, she’s more of a “monkey-see” kid than my son was. He marches to his own drummer - she pays very close attention to what other people are doing and eating and will eat exactly what I do. I used to eat pretty much whatever I wanted. Now I have to eat lots of fruits & veggies because she wants what I’m having. On the one hand, it’s good. I eat much healthier than I used to and she’d live on broccoli and strawberries if she could. On the other hand, I miss my fries, dammit!

Yes, the changes definitely happened overnight. That’s why I thought hiberfil may have become corrupted.

We’ve been adhering to a small set of routines. Play play play diaper upstairs three stories (and counting down between) until we leave and go back to the office. He tried the “one more … okay, this time just one more…” routine, but we cut that off at the pass.

He’s been out of his crib for months now, I think since he hit two. We tried leaving him in there, but no matter how comical the THUMP sounds were, we figured it would be hard to explain to the emergency room docs why he has so many bruises on his head.

At the end of storytime (who the hell came up with the idea that kids fall asleep when your reading them stories? Fuck you, Hollywood) we wrap him in a burrito (remember swaddling? Still kind of works for three seconds), smooch him goodnight and if we’re lucky he’ll stay put 'till we’re out the door. More often it takes several tries as he bounces up as we start leaving. Leave anyway either gets screaming or contented play by himself. If we go in the cycle pretty much repeats. No use putting him the Corner of Shame or threatening him with the Basement of Woe (or promising him a trip to the Basement of Whoa!) … there are no lasting effects. We even tried another Doper’s suggestion and put his toy in the CoS. He reacted by explaining to it what it did wrong and why it had to stay there, then calmly let it out after a tiny bit.

I wonder if he’d take to single malts?

(Disclaimer: no kids, so take this as you will. YMMV, etc.)

Peer pressure may very well have something to do with it. I remember times as a kid where I’d see my friends eating something that I’d usually turn my nose up at, and I’d think to myself “you know what? If my best friend in the world is eating it, maybe I should too,” and at least give it a try. This didn’t work for all foods, but I think I tempered at least a little bit of my own pickyness that way.

Not to mention cafeteria lunchtimes aren’t usually very long. If you’re slow at eating lunch, it means less recess time.

Dang it. I’m already sounding way too much like my mother already!

Yeah, I’m sometimes willing to give her “one more time,” but I’ve been pretty consistent in making sure that when I say “last time” it Really Is the Last Time, Darn It, and it seems to have paid off in that she, on average, is willing to go with it (especially in contrast to when I say “one more time”).

The Little One has a mattress, but right now we have a) spread a blanket on the floor, since she inevitably decides she prefers the floor, and b) she rarely ends up on the blanket either, and is often on some random corner of the room when I find her in the morning. My mother-in-law is appalled that the Little One sleeps on the floor, but… that’s her problem.

The nuclear option is to take the Little One’s toy away entirely and shut the door (for one minute, two minutes, four minutes, six minutes, etc.). This usually works, although it’s hard enough on both of us that I don’t do it too often.

Oh, one other great eating thing: she’s decided that SHE always has to eat first, THEN mommy. If Mommy tries to eat another bite before she’s finished her bite, there’s a cry of “No Mommy eat!” This fight, though, she’s going to have to fight by herself, because I am not changing my eating frequency for her sake :slight_smile:

Those are way better than “my first girlfriend” and “lets skip school.” Or “homework battles” Then we have “all the other girls are boy crazy and mean” from my little geek, who was born to be low on the food chain in middle school.

I’m looking forward to “I borrowed the car without asking” and “I backed into someone and didn’t stop.” And I’m really hoping for “Mom, can you come get me, I’m drunk and so are all my friends” because I don’t want the alternative.

Each age comes with its own challenges. The constant supervision age is really hard though because its PHYSICALLY exhausting while the teen years appear to be more EMOTIONALLY exhausting so far.

Yeah, I’d take our current issues over what’s coming any day.

Ours are 3 1/2 and 19 months, and I opened the tread expecting to see a description of the battles which rage in our house. Beta-chan is bigger, but she is gentler. Didi is smaller, but doesn’t hesitate to hit. It’s not constant, but many end in one or both of them crying.

Carry on!

Our biggest toddler wars (though I guess just shy of 5 isn’t exactly ‘toddler’ anymore) are over behavioral issues. We’ve fought some battles over food, but since the Firebug will eat practically every fruit known to man, likes carrots as well, and eats his vitamins, he seems to be doing OK there. And we just gave up on naps at home at age 22 months, when he learned to climb out of his crib. His day care place has the kids lie down for 2 hours and 45 minutes at nap time, which is way too long IMHO (especially since at kindergarten in just 4 months, he will have no nap time at all), which means it can be hard to get him the fuck to sleep most nights. We turn out the lights at ~8:45pm, but it’s typically 45-60 minutes before he’s actually asleep. Hopefully that problem should mostly go away when he starts kindergarten, and hopefully more activity during the summer will help in the meantime.

We need to figure out how to get out of keeping him company as he goes to sleep, though. When we first brought him back from Russia, we didn’t want to just leave him alone at night because he’d been sleeping in a room with 9 other kids his age, not to mention we’d just completely uprooted him from the life he knew, and we were still strangers to him.

So at first we both kept him company while he went to sleep, then we got it down to just one or the other of us, but especially while he’s having so much difficulty going to sleep, we can’t see a route to leaving him alone altogether. My hope is that four months from now, when he no longer has afternoon naps, he’ll fall asleep at night much more quickly, and it’ll be easier to let him fall asleep by himself.

FWIW, he tends to prefer falling asleep on his frog, or lying on the floor next to whichever parent is keeping him company, to falling asleep in bed. I usually lift him off the floor and put him in bed once he’s been asleep for 20-30 minutes.

Plan for late 20’s to early 30’s. Maybe.