Top Five Most Annoying Things with PJs LOTR

I’d say that Christopher Lee was a great Saruman. He was a bit too obviously evil and untrustworthy, but apart from that he was near perfect and a lot like my mental image.

There are some things that annoy me about the movies. Some of them are easily changed, some are not so easily changed:

  1. Sense of scale is warped: This was obviously a tough thing to handle and I think Jackson handled it as good as he could based on the circumstances. But the feeling of the grandness of the fellowship’s travel is essentially lost which takes away one of the big points of the entire story for me.

  2. Awful computer graphics-to-real life acting transitions: I feel like I’m the only one noticing the Emperor’s naked when I point this out, but it’s awfully obvious whenever the movie switches from computer graphics to normal acting.

You see, the production crew used this program that creates mass scenes. It’s used in all the field battles. You can see how the camera is not operated by a human, but by a computer program. It’s also very obvious that the people you see on screen are not real people. It annoys me. I think it’s ugly, I actually thought it was ugly already back in 2001 or whenever it was that the movies were introduced. Surely I’m not the only one?

  1. Arrogance in script writing: I know Jackson is a great Tolkien fan and knows the source material like the back of his hand. But when you’re given the task to portray one of the most read books of all time, a legendary classic of the 20th century, it takes a big ego to fool around with the details. I think it came with the success of the first movie. Incidentally, the second and third movie are undeniably worse.

  2. Elijah Wood as Frodo: Just a personal thing, he doesn’t work for me at all. As mentioned in the Hobbit thread, I love some of the other castings. Mortensen as Aragorn, Cate Blanchett as Galadriel, Christopher Lee as Saruman, Ian Holm as Bilbo and Ian McKellen as Gandalf are all great in my book. Which makes it harder to work with the castings that I don’t like, like the aforementioned Frodo and also Legolas and Arwen. I guess you can’t have it all.

  3. Everything else mentioned regarding the story lines and characters in the second and third movies.

:slight_smile: good one. It doesn’t say anything in the boks about there being an innumerable force of orcs.

[QUOTE=Chronos]

2: The Army of the Dead. In the movie, they were invincible. In the books, it wasn’t even known if they could be harmed, since their fear was such that no one even tried to stand up to them. If anything, they were weakened in the movie.
QUOTE]

In the movie, they just run into their opponents and they die. They could thus easily have won the battle alone. In the book their main effect is to spread fear.

In my opinion, if you don’t have the ego to fool around with some of the details and make it your own movie, you might as well not adapt the book in the first place. That’s not to justify every single change Jackson made, but it was his movie.

The consensus so far.

Most Annoying things with LOTR

1. Gimli as comic relief
2. Denethor (as person and torch)
3. The Eye of Sauron
4. Treebeard’s ignorance
5. Army of the Dead

Close call, and then there’s the following closing in: Galadriel w. Mirror, Aragorn in River, Faramir and Osgiliath, Merry and Pippin (and other hobbits) as - my interpretation - childish and/or comic relief.

While I agree with your point (being a Tolkien purist), your characterization makes no sense. All three movies were basically written out together and then filmed at the same time.

Furthermore, it was his wife that was primarily responsible for the script, in addition to him. That’s NEVER a good idea. :slight_smile:

Also Philippa Boyens.

I’ve read the books annually since '79 or so, I watch the EE DVDs annually now too. I like them both, as 2 seperate works. So my niggles are little, and often charcter rather than plot-related:

I don’t like Astin’s Sam as much as the other Hobbit portrayals, he just grated.

Legolas was the one they got wrong, not Gimli. He’s not some all-seeing po-faced mystic androgyne. He’s the guy who goes tripping over the snow (which - props to PJ, they do show). But he doesn’t “sense a disturbance in the force”, that’s just dumb.

Treebeard and the other Ents should look a little less tree-like. Just my HO.

Denethor could have been handled a bit less…“cackly”

Saruman should have been a bit less of a D’nD wizard. No breakdancing geezers, no “Ice Storm” spell, no direct possesion of Theoden. I realise PJ was going for unsubtle direct visuals, but I resented it. Made him a bit like the bad guy from “Wizards”. Of course, that leaves room for an interesting Easter Egg where, in the final confrontation, Gandalf whips out a gun and blasts him.
"Oh yeah… one more thing: I’m glad you changed your last name, you son of a bitch! "

From what I gather, there was a huge deal of extra post-production to the second and third movie followed by the success of the first. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Marley23: I think I came across a bit more harsh than I meant to.

But in any case, if you direct a nine-hour long epic trilogy you will leave your directors mark on the job even if you follow the book word by word. There are still things you edit out and so on. The “fool around with details” was regarding to his tendency of adding super-fluous material, not leaving stuff out or changing minor trivia.

  1. Scouring of the Shire–missing
  2. Eye of Sauron–cartoonish (not the one you see when you wear the ring, the one on top of the tower)
  3. Hefalumps larger than battleships, and horses that pull them down with ropes
  4. Aragorn falls off a cliff
  5. Introduction
    Note re #5: this was at the studio’s insistance. It was not the way PJ, FW, and PB originally wrote it. Why can’t they let us learn the history as the story progresses?

And let me add the 5 most satisfying things about PJ’s LOTR:

  1. The Shire
  2. Ian McKellen as Gandalf
  3. The fact that the movies got made at all. It’s a task beyond the abilities of mortal humans.

OK, I can only think of 3.

Wow. I don’t agree with most of you.

I had no trouble with Gimli’s characterization, or Legolas’. I had no trouble with Treebeard-he is nothing like mine, but really, I recognize the difficulty in bringing such a creature to the screen. I find I can’t stand Treebeard in the movie because he talks too slow. His slowness of speech doesn’t bother me in the book, because I can read him quickly-if that makes sense(!). Here are my five in no particular order:

  1. Arwen. IMO, Tyler was wooden. That said, she suffered from having to act the “dying virgin”. What is up with connecting her with the sword? Does Boyen have Freudian issues ?(Boyen got on my nerves in the EE commentary-I have no love for Boyen). This was a needless plot complication and somewhat patronizing to the audience as well as cheapening the bond between Arwen and Aragorn.
  2. No Scouring of the Shire. This is an unforgivable omission. If not in the theatrical release, then it should have been in the EE. The whole point is the awakening and growth of the hobbits in the Shire.

3.Elrond and the depiction of all the elves. In attempting to make them seem otherworldy, PJ et al went for tall, slim, gorgeous and distant. The elves were merry and fun and made music. They weren’t Greek oracles. Again, though-they were great eye candy.

  1. No Tree of the King-and one reference by Gandalf doesn’t count. I so love the scene where Aragorn finds the bloom in the snow. Dammit, it should be in there!

  2. I thought that both Boromir and Faramir were extremely well acted. I liked the subltety of Faramir’s portrayal. BUT-we should have seen more of the House of Healing. We should have seen more of Aragorn and his touch–AND I would have loved it if the whole bit with the pompous healer and Aragorn’s exasperation re Kingsfoil had been portrayed. It’s a lovely comic bit in the midst of a hellish scene.
    I also have issue with some of the dialogue. Boyen says that a fan wrote to her and insisted that Elrond’s “prediction” re Arwen’s future with Aragorn (the speech-can’t recall it now- but the movies shows her grieving over his tomb etc) must be in. She says she hadn’t thought of it, but the lines were good, so she threw them in. (those are not her exact words, but that’s her tone). That pissed me off but good. It is one the most eloquent comments on loss and despair in literature-and she’s casual about it? She wishes she could write that well…

I didn’t realize that we were adding fav things as well.

Eowyn-that she was written at all is a minor miracle. That she is so faithfully portrayed is a second.

Frodo-he really does look like that. I had trouble with Bilbo (but I’ve always thought that Biblo was a bit of shit in the Trilogy)

Gandalf-thank you, Ian McKellen

Aragorn-and thank you, Viggo Mortensen.

The costumes and the sets were beyond wonderful-as were some of the cinematic touches-the lighting of the beacons, the look on Faramir’s face when Denethor chides him, the Ringwraiths…

Well, yes, but post-production doesn’t allow you to re-write huge portions of the script, which is sort of what was implied.

The problm with th Army of the Dead isnot so much that they are invinvible, but how they are introduced into the movie. Our heroe’s seem to be up against it, terrible odds, they will probably die. If only there was something, oh wait, there’s this Army I can summon that has never been mentioned befor. Great, that works. Nothing like a little Deus ex Machina to save the day. It almost ruins the movie.

Well Elrond was an ***hole, but overall I think the elven aura was a good decision.
Dancing and making merry (ehm) is all fine and good for the hobbits, but having the
elves get into that would veer dangerously close to “Elves in Tights” territory. Plus
Kate showed some good warmth and humor in the Gift sequence. I think PJ got
their “world-weariness” down pretty well.

The wizard fight was probably as good as it was going to get-I mean we could
have had lightning bolts and fireballs. Instead we got what appeared to be a
battle of wills more than anything else. Tolkien seemed to imply that Gandalf
just kind of became a willing prisoner.

I do wish PJ had someone who could have served as a sort of “Sauron’s Advocate”,
critically evaluating his decisions and changes. Instead he had a couple of yes-
women who didn’t quite seem up to the task of scripting an epic of this scope.

Given the enormity of task really, I can easily imagine ways in which the movies
could have REALLY been f***ed up. That they were as successful as they were
(creatively) is something we probably should be grateful for (tho nitpicking is
always fun anyway).

The fact that the movies were done so well and so completely is a minor miracle, and I think there’s little doubt that the movie trilogy will hold up well in comparison to what came before, and arguably to whatever subsequent attempts are made. Most of the issues raised in this thread are quibbles over directorial or editorial choices. Some of those may only be forgiveable in the context of the overall achievement, but that achievement is based on all the wonderful scenes and details which Jackson included.

For my money, the whole trilogy is made worthwhile by the inclusion of Theoden’s rallying speech before the charge of the Rohirrim at Pellenor Field. It would’ve been great to see that charge portrayed militarily correctly against a competent Orcish army, but what we got was not only much better than I expected, it was stunning and moving in a way which rivals the passage in the book. The poor editing choices which followed that scene didn’t have a chance of ruining my enjoyment after that.

All of the editorial deletions I think were justified, but none of the additions or changes to the story seemed to improve character development, provide better explication of plot points, or otherwise improve the tale. So I’ve got four quibbles and one major criticism which, for me, absolutely prevented the movie achievement from approaching the literary one in any significant way.

  1. Denethor. Jackson turned one of Tolkien’s most tragic and noble figures into a one dimensional B-movie character. It’s a shame that instead of the determined and capable regent of a determined and capable city state, driven to despair by the loss of two sons and the seemingly imminent destruction of all that he’s spent a lifetime protecting, we were instead given the high fantasy equivalent of Captain Queeg.

  2. The deletion from the theatrical release of Gandalf’s confrontation by the Witch King of Angmar in Minas Tirith just prior to the Charge of the Rohirrim, when Gandalf’s staff is broken and he is bested. Without this scene, the enormity of Merry and Eowyn’s actions on the field is wildly diminished. Merry brings down and Eowyn destroys the leader of the Nazgul, but without the earlier context this scene becomes another “gee whiz” but otherwise unimportant development. And to have excised the confrontation in favor of including Legolas’ acrobatics on the Oliphaunt is just inept storytelling which yields a few minutes of exciting action footage in a scene already replete with it.

  3. Over reliance on FX. As someone’s already mentioned, why hire Ian Holms and Cate Blanchett and then hide bits of their performances behind (IMO somewhat cheesy) visual tricks? And the Army of the Dead would’ve perhaps inspired more dread if they’d been more dreadful and less radioactive.

  4. Treebeard & co. The whole dramatic punch of this part of the story is based on the deliberateness of the Ents and the growing despair of Merry and Pippin when they come to expect no help from the creatures. When the Entmoot ends with consensus among the Ents to take part in the fight, and when the –very deliberate and obsessively careful- Ents act so quickly, terribly and decisively to remove the threat of Orthanc, it’s revelatory of the greater thread of the story. In Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age, no neutrality is possible. The Ents come to realize this so thoroughly and completely that their actions and methods are described by Tolkien almost purely in natural terms, as if Nature itself were rising against the Enemy. None of this comes through in the film.
    The major problem with PJ’s movie trilogy, that which makes it a different and lesser story, is the character Frodo.

Has anyone spoken to any person who hasn’t read the books but who really “gets” Frodo from the movies? The most common take I’ve heard from this set of viewers is that they really like the character of Sam and are amused by the other Hobbits, but they don’t understand the big deal with Frodo. He just carries the Ring around, does stupid things to almost get caught, acts like a wuss, and then can’t even toss the damn thing in the fire when he gets to Mt. Doom. Why didn’t they just give the Ring to Sam?

But the importance of Frodo to Tolkien’s story (but not to Jackson’s) is like the importance of Tom Joad to Steinbeck’s Grapes of Wrath. The story of Frodo is the story of Middle Earth writ small. That Tolkien doesn’t beat the reader over the head with this is more a tribute to his abilities as a storyteller than an indication that Frodo’s struggle is not illustrative of the larger one. Frodo’s story, in fact, is key to understanding the larger story.

Frodo is used by Tolkien to demonstrate the qualities he thinks are absolutely vital for “Good” to triumph over “Evil”. In the books, Frodo demonstrates more than any other character the qualities of respect and moral courage. It’s Frodo’s stewardship of the Ring, rather than his mere conveyance of it, that is Tolkien’s focus. At every turn, Frodo faces a moral choice, and the choices offered never seem to yield a reward for the strictly moral path but constantly offer some obvious advantage to taking an easier, more pragmatic, less ethical, but superficially righteous path.

Frodo’s effort is certainly not well abetted by his companions; he has the help he needs with the physical journey but he is most certainly alone on the moral one. His fellow Hobbits are loyal and good but are followers. Gandalf has a larger role and an Agenda so out of Frodo’s reach and understanding that what guidance he can give is inevitably so broad in scope as to be pointless in effect. Aragorn is locked from the start in a Hamletesque existential struggle of his own, and while a giver of wise counsel and a good moral ally, he has his own struggle to bear. The Elvish leaders at Rivendell and Lothlorien are also good and wise and important, but they are wrapped so inextricably in the larger Struggle that they are essentially little more to Frodo than exemplars of virtue and providers of situational aid. Sam, the constant and reliable companion is as good as they come, but he can’t see beyond the basic first level moral equations.

Frodo is truly on his own, and is the only major character capable of bearing the Ring (in both senses of the word) for very long. Were it not for Frodo’s understanding of this and willingness to sacrifice himself to the task, the Ring would stay in Rivendell and ultimately be captured by Sauron, or would leave in the Company of those who would either try and use it –and be destroyed- or try and keep it safe from the Enemy- and be destroyed. As it becomes more and more clear to Frodo that he is alone in the task, he makes the difficult choice to leave his Companions and strike out on his own. Yet he inspires such loyalty that Sam cannot let him take that path alone.

Most importantly, the choice Frodo makes –three times in the story- to spare or save the life of Gollum is the moral decision which ultimately redeems him, confounds Sauron and destroys the Ring. Near the end, on the steps of Mount Doom, Frodo is so profoundly weary and beaten and heartsick by the struggle that he is near death. The desolate place he has achieved geographically he has also come to spiritually. He is literally at the end of his ability to struggle further. And he still can’t allow the killing of Gollum, having only pity for the creature. It’s that final act of mercy that sets the stage for the final betrayal and redemption of Frodo, when Frodo can’t bear to destroy the Ring.

Gollum’s fate seems to come across as fortunate and accidental in the movie, and that’s a shame.

Two words:

Slow motion

Well, but since Gandalf’s staff wasn’t broken, nor was he bested, I don’t see the argument.True, Gandalf saw that not even Gandalf the White could defeat the Witch-King, but he wasn’t bested and his staff wasn’t broken.

  1. Faramir’s re-characterization as Boromir-lite. He acts so much like Boromir that the reason for Denethor’s favoritism makes no sense – Faramir is supposed to be like Denethor, which is why Denethor favors Boromir.

  2. Denethor being turned into a campy B-movie villain from a tragic and doomed character.

  3. Theoden being under Saruman’s “spell,” instead of being the despairing warrior king who’s been secretly sitting around in full mail waiting for the world to end. That change to beef up Saruman’s characterization really kneecapped Theoden’s.

  4. Moving the House of Healing scenes to the extended version, instead of in the theatrical release. It left everyone wondering why Faramir and Eowen were standing around together at the end.

  5. Catch-all: most of the re-edits and add-ins for the Two Towers: the hobbits telling the Ents about what’s happening to their trees, Aragorn getting conked and falling into the river, the goofy reasoning of going to Helm’s Deep, Wormtongue being shuffled offstage with nary another mention, …

The scene is in the extended version, but was not used for the theatrical release, which is my specific complaint here.

Yes, the movie confrontation differs from the book, but the change for once was actually useful to the story. Yes, the scene might’ve worked just as well had it more closely followed the book (there’s a confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King, but their battle is closely forstalled by the arrival of the Rohirrim). But my point is that the Eowyn/Merry side story is pretty much wasted in the theatrical release because no confrontation is shown. Jackson filmed a beautiful exposition of the importance of Angmar to the battle for Minas Tirith, and his failure to use that scene diminishes the other characters.

Lightray, on point 3 I think you’re confusing Theoden and Denethor. Theoden was indeed under Saruman’s “spell” - possibly not by a direct enchantment but through the words of Wormtongue whispered into his ears over many years, persuading him that he was too old and feeble to do anything, even wear a sword. It is Denethor who reveals that he has gone armed and armoured every day and night for years, to keep himself physically as well as mentally tough.

In the book, when Gandalf has broken Wormtongue’s hold over Theoden, one of the first things Theoden does is ask for his sword, and Eomer offers him his, saying it has always been at his service. (Hama, the guard, having been ordered to let Eomer out of prison, believed he was supposed to return his sword.) Theoden then recovers his own sword from Wormtongue, incidentally finding that he has been systematically stealing valuables over the years.
On the charge of the Rohirrim, mentioned earlier, it should be noted that the besiegers weren’t expecting any interference. The roads were waylaid against any support from Rohan, and it was only the help of the Wild Men that let the Riders arrive unexpectedly at dawn. The forces encamped before Minas Tirith weren’t expecting six thousand lancers to turn up and stomp all over them.