Tour de France 2011 (spoilers)

After stage 12, I’m no longer sure Contador is going to win and stranger still, I’m no longer sure Voeckler won’t?! Today he won’t have had to work very hard as it’s a flat stage, he’ll have a day of rest on Monday, then the next two stages have mountains but they aren’t the type where there will be any real selection if Europcar is smart.

I wouldn’t put money on the guy but he just has to survive two stages and a time trial. Thing is, I’m not sure leopard trek or Saxo can dish the proper punishment they could in the past and Andy himself doesn’t seem like he wants to risk dropping his brother (I wouldn’t have that problem, I love my brother - he’s a great guy - but if I could drop him, I’d love to watch him drop backwards down a mountain).

One of these days, Andy will have to nut up and drop the hammer all the way up a climb. He doesn’t have the massive acceleration of Contador so he can’t rely on that. He has to slowly put the hurt on people with pace.

Aside - I’m re-watching stage 12 and Voeckler looks FINE up this final climb! It’s really impressive. They DID climb it about a minute and a half slower than the previous records but still…are we absolutely sure he doesn’t’ have two more of these in him in stages 18 and 19? How great would that be…it’d serve the favorites right. People forget that he hasn’t really HAD to time trial as he is never in a position that he needs to go 100%…

Voeckler insists he won’t make it through the Alps

I hope he fights hard for it, though.

Voeckler also insisted that he would lose the yellow jersey in stages 12 and 14. His track record on these predictions isn’t very good. :stuck_out_tongue:

Well he would certainly know better than I would, that’s for sure, lol. Maybe this is finally Cadel’s year (that is if AC really isn’t on form).

Voeckler is riding with a lot of heart for sure. The top men couldn’t have been on the rivet there, though, to use a Liggetism. No way Jelle Vanendert puts 45 secs into Contador et al if they’re throwing down the coal. Be great to see Voeckler contesting things in the Alpes, though, for sure.

It’s basically down to whether Contador has a great ride in him on stage 18 - I think Basso said Contador could attack once and win the Tour.

That’s probably right, but can Basso drop Schleck though, you think? Without looking up ITT stats over the last few years but Andy Schleck isn’t as bad as he used to be and Basso has never been great so he’d need to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 minutes on Andy on Stage 18 and 19, maybe more (given the 1m advantage Andy has now) wouldn’t he? Seems like a big ask.

Contador, on the other hand, has about four days (including today) to heal before the two really big days in the mountains. If that’s enough, one massive attack and this thing could be over. Lately he seems to be level with Cadel on Time Trial ability so he really only needs that 2 minutes.

I think it’s Andy or Fränk Schleck’s year. I don’t think Cadel has the legs to drop them. Andy Schleck is going to be looking for big time gains in the Alps, and I suspect he’ll get them. Contador may get back onto the podium with a monster attack, but I bet Andy and Frank stay with him.

Don’t write off Sammy Sanchez, either.

Having said all that I’m still rooting for Evans.

Plateu de Beille is one of the Monument climbs in the Tour de France, along with the Gailibier, the Tourmalet, Luz Ardiden and Alpe d’Huez and a sacttering of others. When they are used as part of a “summit finish”, analysts like to use their ascent climbing times to compare how a given year’s riders are comparing to previous years.

The all time record for the climb on Plataue de Beille is 43:30 seconds set in 1998 by Pantani himself.

The other day, the young Belgian who snuck away in the final 5km did the same climb in 45:13 and he was still 30 seconds or more in front of the main protagonists - and that, right there, is where your answer is. The time is disputed, there are reports the climb might have been as slow as 47:00 minutes which is still amazingly fast for mere mortals of course. But in relative terms it was slow compared to Pantani’s and Contador’s previous ascents in earlier years.

The facts would indicate that this year, the main protagonists are not from the very “top shelf” if you know what I mean, which is why Thomas Voeckler is able to ride above himself (in the context of previous results on Mountain stages). The facts would indicate Voeckler rode arguably the best climb of his life, and the other main protagonists would have lost time to Panatani, Armstrong, and Contador in earlier years.

I predict similar “relative times” will manifest themselves in the Alps as well.

The most interesting thing about that story is where Voeckler admits that in the Dauphine ITT he got caught by the rider behind and managed to stay with him. Looking back at Voeckler’s ITT results from previous races, he is usually much worse than 2 minutes behind Evans, the Dauphine this year being an exception. In a post above I said if Voeckler can merely stay with the GC contenders in the Alps and goes into the ITT with about two minutes, then (based on him only being behind Evans by 2 min in the Dauphine) he might just pull it off. However, if Voeckler’s Dauphine performance this year can be written off as an anomaly, then his next best ITT performance against Evans had him more than three minutes down, and usually nearly four. So if that’s right, then Voeckler can only win if he successfully gaps Evans in the Alps. Although I guess if being behind another rider to provide a target can provide Voeckler with enough motivation to get him home 2 minutes behind Evans at the Dauphine, then perhaps being in yellow and having a shot at winning GC could do the same.

After apportioning for ITT length (bringing everything back to 42.5k to match this year’s course) AS was beaten by CE by margins as follows in TdF in the last few years:

2008 (1st ITT) 1:02
2008 (2nd ITT) 2:03
2009 0:31

I’ll ignore the 2010 ITT in which Evans clearly wasn’t trying, because he was so far back. But in that year AS was beaten by AC by:

2010 0:31

Finally, Knorf, your last two posts could have been written by me. I agree entirely.
BBF tell me where I’m going wrong but I’m not sure I entirely agree with your analysis. I very much doubt that the GC contenders couldn’t keep up with Vanendert, so that means they weren’t trying to go as fast as they could. That is, they were playing tactical games eyeing one another off rather than going all out. If that’s right, then their climb time doesn’t really say much about how they compare to other years where riders were going all out.

Of course, that of itself says something interesting about this years’ GC elite (none have the confidence to just try to blast the others off their wheel) but I’m not sure what occurred is one that allows comparison to previous years’ times.

There are 5 Summit finishes this year. After the Tour is finished, if the results show that all 5 summits were climbed slower than years gone by, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that this year’s elite won’t have been from “the top shelf” (for want of a better description) - although to be fair, that would still be a subjective interpretation of a small data sample.

Conversely, if we are to assert that this year’s “elite” (the Top 7 say on GC) are as good as any Top 7 ever assembled, then by extension, we must also assert that Thomas Voeckler is now also amongst the greatest climbers of all time - and historically, his results in the Mountains don’t support this view.

Given that Voeckler’s time on the Plateau de Beille was 45:43 or thereabouts, given that Contador did the same climb in 2007 in 44:03, in my view, we can surmise that Basso is at, or near his all time best form, both Voeckler and Evans are at their all time best form, and Contador is approximately 5% below his personal best form.

This then leaves the Schleck boys and Sammy Sanchez. These are the jokers in the pack because Sammy Sanchez has a very similar climbing style to the two Schleck brothers, and Sanchez is only 1:30 behind Andy Schleck on GC at the time of writing, with the Alps yet to come. The Schleck one-two counter punch only works when they’re hitting guys who are IN FRONT of them on GC. But it works against them when they’re being hounded by a similar counter puncher who is really close behind them on GC - if you’re that latter guy, you mark your time on the climbs… you let the Schleck one-two go off three maybe four times and then BAM! You counter attack yourself and all of a sudden the Schlecks are exposed, totally in oxygen debt and now they’re fighting for all their lives to hold off losing vital podium positions to a guy who has hit 'em from behind.

At the same time, if you’re higher up on GC, you’re laughing… you don’t have to chase because you’ve still got time up your sleeve. And THAT is the dillemna now for the Schlecks - they have to inherently curtail their favourite one-two counter punch for fear of handing a podium position to Sanchez. Sucked in!

Indeed, as intimidating as it is, the Schleck one-two in many respects is a one-trick pony. To this day, I have yet to see either Andy or Frank absolutely dominate, and ride away from, the elite riders in a Grand Tour mountain stage - as in, taking minutes out of their immediate rivals. Last year, Andy seemingly tried to do that on the Tourmalet stage against Contador and quite frankly, he never once looked like he was going to succeed. Of course, this too is also historically true of Cadel Evans. As much as we can look to Evans losing 13s to Wiggins on the final Mountain stage in the Dauphine, it’s last year’s Zoncolan against Basso that I can’t forget. He went down the GC like a bobsled on that stage.

However, what I really do like about Cadel this year is that seemingly, he has more “punchiness” than ever before - not Phillipe Gilbert levels of punchiness (he is currently so much my hero) but certainly impressive nonetheless.

I don’t think we should read much in to the slower climbing times. This year they went up to Plateau de Beille in large group instead of climbing alone or with another rider or 2. It was bound to be more tactical.

And speaking of tactics, the one-2 punch can never work against your team if you play it smart. The tactic is pretty basic. You repeatedly send one rider (presumably the weaker) on the attack and make your target cover them. If your guy blows up, it’s no big deal since the opponent is weakened making sure they don’t escape. Your main rider won’t necessarily win the climb but you don’t have anything to lose by it.

The tactic has limitations though. Your opponent might just be too strong. And it doesn’t work in groups like we saw on Plateau de Beille since your target can sit on other hopefuls and let them chase. Also you can somehow mess it up as the Schleck Bros did when they failed to team up against Gilbert at Liège-Bastogne-Liège. But it doesn’t matter where your opponent sits on time. Ahead or behind, so long as both of your riders are actual threats to his overall chances he has to chase when you isolate and attack him.

If, then yes. But you seemed to be suggesting that the climb up to Plateau de Beille suggested something on its own, and given that the GC contenders didn’t even get up there as fast as some guy no one has heard of, I don’t think that too many conclusions can be drawn other than “they weren’t going as fast as they can”.

As long as I’m hyping Eurosport’s coverage, can I just go on record as saying I love Skoda’s commercial?

Only to Hoogerland, it seems.

It’s damn clever. It’s so opposite to normal car ads which show their wares as uber perfect, never a speck of dust, never a drop of mud, always being used by smug perfect people in perfect surroundings (unless it’s an SUV or work vehicle in which case some designer mud splashes are OK).

Skoda seem to have decided to position themselves as the makers of tough practical vehicles and if that’s what they are trying for, I think the ad succeeds in spades.

I’m sick of the IZOD commercials, but I’ve hated every Indycar commercial for the past several years. I’ve been to Indycar races. It wasn’t a bunch of people standing around looking bored in polos and slacks. It was people in jeans and NASCAR t-shirts.

I never get bored of watching Bob try to find someone to ride with him though! “Great, it’s a date!” “It’s a bike ride… and I said maybe.” “AAAHHHH!”

I’m in disagreement my friend.

It’s my view that they were very much at, or close to their limit on Plateau de Beille. Others will have a different view, obviously, and that’s why I rather enjoy these threads.

I’m sure if Contador COULD have equalled his 2007 time (which was 1:40 faster that 2011) then he damn well WOULD have done it - man, that would have possibly taken him right close to the lead - hence, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that Contador was at, or near his limit, on that day.

Cadel Evans actually improved his 2007 time, from what I can tell. In 2007 Evans finished in 7th place at 1:52 behind Contador, who did the climb in 44:03, which translates to a climb time of 45:55 for Cadel Evans 4 years ago. In 2011, my calculations show that Evans did a climb time of 45:45 or thereabouts - about 10 seconds faster.

My search fu shows that the Schlecks weren’t even on the scen in 2007. For some reason, it seems like the’ve been around for a long time. Believe it or not, just those 2 guys are the only 2 guys who finished in the Top 10 on the same climb in 2007.

Leipheimer in 2007 was 4th at 0:40, in 2011 was 29th at 9:40

I have to say, that’s a rather surprising churn rate of major protragonists in just 4 years. Clearly, the major catalyst for fast times in 2007, one Alberto Contador Velasco, is missing from this years climbs - albeit, thus far.

The astonishing improver is Thomas Voeckler. He finished 117th in 2007, some 36 minutes down on the Stage winner. What an impressive improvement this year’s climb was, in that context.

Obviously, I can do a similar level of analysis on previous summits too - my prediction is that we’d see a similar showing. Evans will have improved slightly up to his all time best form, and Contador will consistently be some 5% off his best times. The other guys are too new, it seems. With the exception of Voeckler, who seemingly has improved by tens of minutes on previous years.

[Phil Liggett]When you wear the maillot jeune, you ride like TWO men[/Phil Liggett]

Are you staying up to watch the Tour live BBF? Must finish in the early hours (4am?) in Aus - tough on the sleep for a cycling fan.

About 1.30 am. I stayed up to watch Plateau de Beille because, yanno, it was going to decisive and I couldn’t miss it. Sigh.