And discussing those gender related specific systems issues is useful. “Toxic” this or that however impedes discussing those in meaningful ways.
Encouraging parents to raise strong non-passive daughters, being aware of what messages our chosen myths (be they Disney or other) send to our children is not served by the phrase “toxic masculinity.” In your example we should not be teaching boys to be men less willing to stand up for themselves. We do need to teach them to expect women to stand up for themselves as well as men and to value that.
monstro, you may think so but I’d believe you are mistaken. It is an attack on their basic identity. Substitute another identity to get a better sense … “toxic Blackness”, “toxic whiteness”, “toxic immigrant”, “toxic Jewishness”, “toxic Muslimness” … all of those would be conversation stoppers and appropriately so. Not because of hypersensitivity.
…But the specific problematic behaviors are often either directly valued and encouraged or follow directly from a mindset that is valued and encouraged. Nobody is labeling the people toxic, but it gets perceived as such regardless, because these ideas and behaviors are often core to someone’s personality.
I’ve long believed there is toxic femininity, but it may not be truly analogous to toxic masculinity. This makes harder to discuss both them side-by-side.
It’s very easy to spot the influence of toxic masculinity in our pop cultural tropes–not in the villains, but in the heroes. The stoic, emotionally detached, rule-breaking, uber-competent killing and thinking machine loner who has self-destructive tendencies (alcoholism, drugs, sex) is a ubiquitous male protagonist. He’s given allowances for his reckless behavior because he’s extra strong and capable in an alpha male kind of way. He is not judged for abandoning his family to advance his cause. He can be a nihilistic and sadistic Tyler Durden-type and yet will register with the viewer as a good guy (Fight Club is one of the most misunderstood movies of our time thanks to this). He registers that way because we are socially programmed to esteem masculinity; the more extreme and stereotypically masculine he is, the more he’s able to get away with.
Toxic femininity does not have purchase in our pop culture anywhere to the same extent that TM does. Any female character that embodies extreme and stereotypically feminine traits will usually occupy a villainous role. A female protagonist could get away with leveraging her feminine wiles in moments of desperation to get ahead (see Charlies Angels), but she can’t have a stereotypically feminine personality in the same way a male hero can be stereotypically masculine.
Perhaps McCain is a good example of TF. I don’t know enough about her to know how she behaves.
But there is such a thing. “Toxic Islam” could be used to refer to the subset of Muslims that advocates or participates in ISIS, al-Qaeda, beheadings, throwing gays off rooftops, etc. (Yes, most Muslims don’t do that sort of thing, but then again few people would say that toxic masculinity is exhibited by all men or even most men.) As **Budget Player Cadet **asks, what would you call such behavior otherwise?
“Society pushes the idea that in order to be “feminine” a woman must be passive and use her wiles to convince a man to take action on her behalf. This is a toxic construction of femininity. This sort of toxic femininity pushes women toward passive aggressive behaviors that are ineffective and damage their interpersonal relationships and happiness”
Society pushes the idea that in order to be “masculine”, a boy needs to be aggressive–it’s not enough to be assertive, they must be domineering and respected as the one in charge. Some boys really struggle to reconcile this toxic idea of masculinity with their own inherent empathy and so end up adopting passive-aggressive behaviors in an attempt to live up to the toxic standards of masculinity they feel bound to. This behavior is ineffective and damages their interpersonal relationships and happiness".
I don’t understand how that’s impeding the discussion. Telling people 'Some of the things society tells you about being a man/woman are toxic and untrue" seems liberating, not restrictive.
I don’t think think “Toxic Islam” would be a subset of people, it would be a subset of ideas about what it means to be a “real Muslim” that are destructive and pervasive.
Well (ETA: as many others have now said already), what term should we use to describe traditional gender stereotypes that we think are bad for people?
The point of the term “toxic” is to convey the perspective that certain traditional gender expectations and cultural norms, which are conventionally presented as right and normal and natural, are actually damaging and counterproductive overall. What alternative term to “toxic” are you proposing should be used to convey that perspective?
Well, our society certainly does use similar terms to describe socially harmful forms of various minority identities, such as “gangsta culture” for glorification of crime/drugs/misogyny among some African-Americans. Or the previously-mentioned term “white privilege” to reference social reinforcement of white obliviousness or obtuseness about racial issues.
So what socially-approved term do you think we should use to refer to, say, harmful traditional stereotypes of masculinity? Like it or not, “toxic masculinity” seems to be the term for this concept currently gaining widespread popular acceptance in our language. And I think once the term is familiar enough that most people stop misinterpreting it as “masculinity is toxic” or “maleness is toxic”, they’ll be much less likely to perceive it as “an attack on their basic identity”.
The people that object to “toxic masculinity” because they refuse to believe it means “the set of masculine behaviors that are toxic” will object to “hypermasculinity” because it suggests that masculinity is a negative quality and that it’s bad to be “too manly”.
“Harmful gender stereotypes” works fine. Even just stating that stereotypes are a common problem across identities and that we all should be aware of them as implicit biases and be aware of structural and institutional factors that promote these stereotypes.
That isn’t demonizing the identity.
And those phrases do. “Toxic masculinity” demonizes the identity.
Look, here’s a challenge. Without saying what it is NOT and without saying things that equally apply to women, what is “masculine” that is not “toxic”?
I don’t think “don’t apply to women” is really a fair standard there, because lots of women display traits that are masculine.
Let me turn that back to you–what POSITIVE traits do you think are either necessary or sufficient for a person to be a man but are either not seen in women or are not positive when seen in women? What is this positive masculinity that you think is being unfairly slandered?
I, with Wollstonecraft, tend to think we’ve lumped a bunch of positive traits into the bucket of “masculine” because, historically, we’ve denied women access to qualities like being forthright, practical, protective, emotionally controlled, logical, and assertive; insofar as women have been “allowed” to have those traits, they’ve had to accept the label of “less feminine” than women who did not display those traits. On the other hand, we took a bunch of negative traits and lumped them under “feminine”–in order to be fully “feminine”, women have had to adopt certain traits that are infantilizing.
So I guess, yeah, I don’t believe that there’s a non-Toxic masculinity that is the exclusive perview of men; I also don’t think there’s a non-toxic femininity. I think there are positive and negative traits, and when we say they are good or required if you are THIS gender, and neutral or even negative if you are THAT gender, it’s a loss. We can say this or that trait is more common in this or that gender, and we can discuss if that’s inherent or cultural in origin, but when you start down the path of “real men have this trait” or “real women are like this”, it’s bad.
It’s not clear here what you’re asking for in terms of identifying something as “masculine”. Do you mean, what sorts of things are conventionally associated with being male?
Because that’s a huge list that ranges all the way from beards and chest hair to watching men’s sports and singing bass. And none of these characteristics are intrinsically “toxic”. The toxic part is stating or implying that only men are allowed to have such characteristics or that not having them makes a man inferior.
Phrases like “smooth-faced as a girl”, “one of those sissy boys with a waxed chest”, “No girls allowed when the game is on!”, “a deep-voiced bull dyke”, etc., are illustrations of toxic masculinity. Having a beard or chest hair or watching men’s sports or singing bass, in themselves, are not.
Indeed. The implication, “I’m right there with you objecting to harmful gender stereotypes, BUT NOT UNTIL YOU COME UP WITH A BETTER TERM,” is less than persuasive. If you want to fight shitty social structures, you’ll put up with terminology that’s not 100% to your liking. If you’re quibbling over the terminology, it’s almost always because you’re not especially interested in doing anything about those social structures.
I wonder if women who work in certain predominately male environments are prone to “adaptive toxic masculinization”. I once worked in a very “macho” workplace, where the conversations were frequently bawdy, sexist, and homophobic. A very “boys will be boys” culture. At first I just tried to fit in by being a “cool chick”. You know, not be a schoolmarm over every non-PC joke, but not necessarily contributing my own. I would raise one eyebrow, but not both. I would chuckle over some stuff but not too loud.
But I do remember one time when I crossed the line from “kinda-sorta cool chick” over to “toxic”. Someone was badmouthing a woman that didn’t much care for. Rather than just laugh along, I chimed in with: “Yeah, she is a real See You Next Tuesday.” The boys exchanged confused looks for a minute and then busted out laughing. I was proud of myself when they said “monstro, we didn’t know you had it in you!” I was not only one of the guys, but I was also a “bad” guy. And I kinda liked it.
There are no doubt other toxic things I did just to fit in.
DSeid, before you talked about using the term “negative stereotypes”. I think the problem with that is that “stereotypes” are about the buckets we put other people in–the concept is inherently one of ignoring or minimizing differences in others and replacing a more nuanced understanding of them as people with a generic “type”. A stereotype is understood to be wrongly applied in haste.
The concept of toxic masculinity/femininity is different. It’s internal–it’s looking at how society compels individuals to adopt anti-social and self-destructive traits in order to live up to a perceived sexual character. I don’t think I “stereotype” myself, but I can see how toxic ideas of femininity have warped my sense of self in certain ways, and with that knowledge I can push back against them. That is in no way rejecting my identity as a woman, nor does it make me feel like being woman is toxic.
The terms seem more “pop-psy” to me. Assholes who troll via sexism would be my take. These are individuals who have issues with control, stereotypes are just a convenient trope for them to exploit.