Tracing a tripped outlet--Electrical Question

As succinctly as possible: I have a dead circuit in my house but the breaker switches are not tripped–we are presuming there’s some GFCI upstream from the breaker but downstream from the known dead outlets that has tripped. How on earth do I find where the problem is??

The house only has a few GFCIs–none known are tripped, all known are working EXCEPT for the one on the dead circuit–but that GFCI has no power coming to it, meaning somewhere between it and the breaker, something’s killing the power.

In my home inspection documents, it notes that particular GFCI as being “redundant,” but with no more information and no “master list” of GFCIs in the house. If it has no power coming to it, and if it was noted as “redundant,” I presume there’s another tripped outlet somewhere in-line.

How on earth do I trace the point of the dead outlet/source of dead-ending on the circuit?

***I don’t even know how to have an electrician come check–***if I don’t know where the problem is, how can he fix it?

Is there a tool I can use? I have various electrical tools I inherited from my dad who was a certified electrician.

A few notes:

The dead circuit includes outdoor outlets in the front and the back–we did have christmas lights going and it was raining all night the night the circuit “tripped.” Seems related.

Using my Klein ET310, I was able to trace the dead outlets to the breaker switch, it would beep at a particular switch, but that switch wasn’t tripped. I flipped it on and off (and all the others for good measure) to no avail. I just double checked and I no longer get a beep at all at the breaker box. None of the known dead outlets beep at the breaker with my Klein tester–not even at the Main switch.

Wondering if @Bob_Blaylock can help here.

If I can supply more info, I’d be happy–This started Christmas Eve Morning (went out over-night the night before).

I have an ongoing thread with Chat GPT3 which has dead-ended in “hmmm looks like it’s time to involve a real electrician,” but when I say “cool–but if I don’t know where the offending outlet might be, how do I direct an electrician to help?” and chatbot said “hmm good point…”

So at this juncture, I do not feel like involving an electrician is prudent, given the situation.

But I would really like all my dead outlets back on.

Turn the breaker off and check a few outlets so you can find one you know is on that breaker (and working). Turn power back on and plug in the tracer. Sometimes, if you’re lucky, those things will work through the walls. You may be able to trace the wire(s) entering/leaving that box and, if you’re lucky, find out where it stops. You may have to do this a few times from different outlets. But I don’t think this is going to be a terribly reliable method.

If it were my house I’d start by opening up the bad outlet and check the wires coming into it to make sure they’re the problem and it’s not just a bad outlet. Then I’d start doing the same on any other outlets/switches on the circuit as well as looking for junction boxes in the basement/attic that are part of that circuit as well.
At each location you need to check Hot to Neutral and Hot To Ground and if you can, conform continuity between Neutral and Ground.

Start by checking the bad outlet.
Hot to Ground should give you 120v
Hot to Neutral should give you 120v
Ground to Neutral should be 0.

If you haven’t start by checking the bad outlet.

And, of course, if you’ve never done this type of thing you should certainly call someone. Troubleshooting this problem will involving poking around at live wires.
Re-reading the OP, it seems like this might be a bit over your head, but since I have you here, you’ll need a voltage tester. A DMM (digital multi meter) is nice, but you can do everything short of continuity tests with a cheap neon voltage tester from any big box store.

If you don’t have something like this, or some way to check voltages, stop. This is not a problem that can be easily fixed without a voltage tester*.

*A ‘real’ one. Non contact voltage testers have their place, but it’s not here.

Also, since I didn’t mention it, I have this feeling you have an open circuit somewhere. Assuming everything else on that circuit is working and no GFCIs are tripped, I’m guessing a splice opened up or a wire came off the back of an outlet or something long those lines.

  I have to say that yes, it’s time to involve a real electrician.  Being an electrician myself, I would not even think of trying to diagnose this issue over an online forum, without actually being able to examine and test the relevant circuits in person.

  Finding where the problem actually is, in this case—that’s the electrician’s job, not the customer’s.

Are all of your outdoor outlets dead or just some of them?

I have an update of sorts–

I’ve got strong suspicions I know of the offending outlet. I’ll figure out how to post a photo.

I put on my sleuthing hat and considered the backyard camera was on the broken circuit–so I powered it up and reviewed the footage: I was able to pin-point when the power went off.

This whole time I’ve been pumping the family for any abnormalities when firing up some appliance or something–a heater? Something like that–?

Once I knew that time the power blipped, I remembered I was working on a copper plaque. I had been in the garage running the bench grinder.

THAT OUTLET had a suspicion dark haze that RESEMBLED an electrical incident, but I couldn’t confirm anything.

I’m pretty sure that’s the problematic outlet, and cause of the issue. I VAGUELY recall an issue when I powered things down.

I have several different multimeters–Fluke TS1000 is what I use the most often, but I also have a Centech that’s more complicated.

Final thought–
The unpowered GCFI on this broken circuit was noted as “redundant,” but I still don’t know what this outlet–if the offender–would do to render an upstream ground fault redundant…
500x500

If the bench grinder motor was arcing, that’ll do it. Arcing from motors is why they’re not required, or recommended, for outlets that refrigerators are plugged into.

some people doing electrical work will daisy chain through an outlet. That is put the power going to the outlet under one of the outlet screws and the power going out of the box to the next outlet under another outlet screw. If either screw loosens then the down stream outlets may not work. And worse is if the outlet is a stab on outlet.

There are two ways to find the offender. Outlets are normally wired up one after the other. That is in a room go from one outlet to the next. Try and locate the upstream outlet and pull it out and check the wiring in the outlet box. It may take checking several boxes until you find the right one.

The other way is with a tone and probe tester and tracer. Pull the outlet out and put the noise maker directly on the wires feeding the outlet. Then take the sensor and begin tracing where the line goes.

There is also the possability of a bad or loose breaker. Test the voltage at all the breakers.

A very similar thing happened to me, and the path people have been pointing you down would have found the problem in my circuit.

Most of the outlets in my garage, and the lights in my master bath, stopped working. The bathroom is above the garage. The breaker never tripped. The GFCI in the bathroom did not trip, and the GFCI that protects the whole garage did not trip, though it had no power.

The bathroom lights losing power made my investigation pretty easy. Turns out the entire garage and front outdoor outlets are connected to the light switch in my bathroom.

Power comes in from upstream, and then splits going to the light switch, and down to the garage. The triple connection of the hot or neutral wires (I don’t recall which) had arced and burned up enough from high loads in the garage, that it no longer made a complete circuit, so the lights and garage didn’t get power.

The first time this happened many years ago I had an electrician “fix” it. The same problem occurred a few months ago, and his fix had failed. I replaced the wire nut with a Wago style connector, which hopefully will not burn up.

I also now only put high loads on the one garage outlet that is on a different circuit.

I have used wago connectors on light fixtures. They are darned convenient, but don’t real electricians dislike them?

They’re widely used in Europe. There’s nothing wrong with properly installed Wago connectors, nor is there anything wrong with properly installed wire nuts. Wago is a little more idiot-proof, although low-quality clones/counterfeits are probably relatively worse than low-quality wire nuts. If any electricians dislike them, it’s probably due to hidebound thinking, or at least some past experience (with counterfeits, etc.) that isn’t generally applicable.

Hey all. I’m about ready to call an electrician after the new year…I wanted to lay out my details and see if there’s anything left for me to check or anything I’m not thinking of–and I was hoping you might put eyes over it to see if there’s something simple I’m not considering.

  1. There was an arcing event at an outlet in the garage.
  2. That event has tripped or otherwise broken the circuit said outlet is connected to.
  3. That event DID NOT trip the BREAKER
  4. The breaker is 100% on and the broken circuit has partial power, ruling out the breaker being the problem (power is confirmed to the circuit).
  5. The circuit apparently goes into the kitchen–which is all “on,” then branches off into the dead portion, which includes all the exterior outlets, two in the garage, the upstairs bathroom (which has the GFCI) as well as the downstairs bathroom. I have checked each room for dead outlets.

Those are the facts I think I “know.”

What I don’t know is:

A. If the broken branch of the circuit was “tripped” by a device or “blown” with damage to a wire/outlet.
B. Why my inspection report calls the upstairs bathroom’s GFCI “redundant”–this leads me to presume my entire problem is a “tripped” circuit breaker device that is unknown to me.
WHAT makes the GFCI redundant??

C. Unknown location of all GFCI recepticals. I *thought I knew of all of them, but this event has me dubious. The locations of all known GFCIs should lend to some sensibility about predictions:
There is ONE GFCI in each of the two bathrooms upstairs, then TWO under the breaker box in the garage (one is labeled “freezer,” the other is labeled “Pool.” All GFCIs are normal functional except for the upstairs bathroom, which is on the broken circuit.

I’m presuming based on the location of all known GFCIs that there’s not one outdoor (hidden behind a bush or something) nor one in some goofball location I don’t know of–but again, the whole “redundant” note makes me curious…

WHAT I AM TRYING TO AVOID:

I don’t want to have someone out who has to waste time poking around looking for some PURPLE COCO hidden outlet–this house has outlets in the crawlspace that accesses the bath’s plumbing. There’s a bonus room with various crawl spaces into the attic(s). There are no walkboards in the main attic for inspection. Not even the home inspectors wanted to risk it up there.

If it’s a matter of finding some outlet, I’d rather just keep looking myself.

One final thought:

When the power first went out, I was able to get a reading on my ET310 to trace the dead outlet at the breaker box. I found the affected circuit and then confirmed all the dead outlets were on the same circuit using the ET310 to test each dead outlet.

I then started removed each dead outlet to check for power at the wiring itself, including all outdoor outlets.

I also have been looking for single outlet wiring verse outlets that appear to be a link in a daisy chain–which the initially arced/affected outlet in the garage has 3 sets of wires to/through it.

I did not find power at the source of any of the “dead” outlets–but I now can no longer get any reading from the Et310 at the breaker box.

My hypothesis is that I’ve loosened something to further kill the circuit so that the ET310 cannot make the trace, but I’m dumb. I’m guessing.

My plan is to go back and pull/inspect and recheck each outlet, and if that doesn’t move me any closer, I’ll try to find someone to come look at things. But, given the facts, it really seems like something probably was tripped–something working just as it’s supposed to.

If not, it’s a blown wire affecting incoming power and killing the circuit.

One thing I want to check, and it may just be my misunderstanding. If the arcing was inside the outlet or box, that is because there was a bad connection. That connection will need to be repaired to restore power.

I would assume the “redundant” GFCI means a GFCI that is downstream of another GFCI.

How old is the house? Having kitchen circuits (I assume kitchen counter circuits) sharing a breaker with anything else has been against code for decades. In fact, there should be two separate kitchen counter circuits. Are you certain they are on the same breaker? I find it difficult to believe that the home inspection wouldn’t flag this.

Not clear if you have a DMM or not. On the dead outlet check for continuity between neutral and ground. If there is no continuity, that may indicate an unknown tripped GFCI upstream (GFCIs open both hot and neutral). There should normally be continuity between neutral and ground (they are tied together at the main panel).

The upstairs bathroom GFCI is the one which has no power coming from the line side? Was that bathroom added later? The other bathroom is OK?

I think the most likely scenario is that there is a GFCI for the outside/garage that you haven’t found yet. The upstairs bathroom GFCI (assuming it has no incoming power) is connected to the outside/garage circuit (weird, but I think it is OK by code). Are you sure you found all of the outside and garage outlets? A GFCI would likely be on the outlet closest to the electrical panel.

This sucks, but I have no details about the “arc event,” --I’m deducing it happened.
It was late Christmas Eve and I was trying to put some finishing touching on a copper related gift I needed to get wrapped–so I know I was running the bench grinder at the presumed offending outlet.

I am not one to yank a cord of a running tool, but I do vaguely recall a spark, or at least something that made me second-take, but it was 1:30 in the morning and I was fading. And, there is a residue that looks dark, like a cartoonish spark mark (I cannot confirm if that was previously there because I didn’t pay close attention like this before).

That outlet is on the dead branch of the circuit. It has 3 sets of wires through or into it. I cannot get a reading on any of the wires after I pulled it from the socket.

I can see no obvious signs of damage or anything strange, connections seem secure.

That sounds like what happened to me. I know I posted a long rambling thing above, so I’ll try to be succinct.

I have a poor connection into my garage. When running a heavy load in the garage, the poor connection starts to arc, which creates a hot spot and burns up or melts the wire. Eventually enough material is burned or melted that the connection breaks. Restoring power requires repairing the connection that burned up. The breaker doesn’t trip, because the actual load never exceeds the breaker’s limit.

Everything downstream of the burned connection loses power. The burned location is in my bathroom, not the garage. The high load is in the garage.

The first time this happened, 10 years ago or so, I had it repaired by an electrician. That repair, a wire nut with 3 aluminum wires in it, lasted 10 years. When that failed recently, I repaired it with a Wago style connector, but those aren’t rated for aluminum, so I’ve avoided putting heavy loads through it.

Finding the bad connection may be difficult. Or it could be a tripped GFCI hidden behind something, like you say.

As long as you’re calling an electrician, I wouldn’t be too worried about understanding or diagnosing anything. Tell them which outlet or outlets aren’t working, tell them what you were doing when it happened and let them figure it out.
Most of this isn’t overly complicated and an electrician can probably track down the problem relatively quickly. If you give them too much information you run the risk of sending them down a rabbit hole that’s going to waste time and cost (you) money.

Regarding redundant GFCIs: When ‘properly’ wired, a GFCI outlet will protect all outlets downstream (‘electrically’ further from the breaker box). If those outlets are also GFCI, they’re redundant since they’re not needed and, in fact, more likely to cause nuisance trips.
Have the electrician take a look at them. If the second GFCI is wired to the Line (unprotected) side of the first GFCI, it’s fine. Unnecessary, but not actually redundant and can/should be left alone. If the second one is redundant (wired to the load/protected side of the first) they can rewire it so it isn’t or just replace it with a regular outlet.

My WAG is that the redundant one was added in later on because someone didn’t realize it was already protected by the first one. You could, if you wanted, get a GFCI tester and find out for sure. But I’d suggest letting the electrician figure it out. They’ll have the tools and it’ll take them all of 5 minutes to give you a definitive, and correct, answer.

FWIW, given how complicated this thread appears on the surface, it really isn’t that big of a deal for someone with experience to track down and fix.

I think the arcing event happened inside the bench grinder. I’m WAGing that the motor brushes sparking tripped the GFCI.

PS, this is why I’m saying to lay out the facts, not guesses, for the electrician. Unless you saw arching, don’t tell them there was an ‘arcing event’, just tell them you were using the bench grinder when it happened.
BTW, is the bench grinder unplugged now? If not, and you’re going to keep troubleshooting, unplug it now. You don’t want to have an electrician come out only to find that there’s a short or some other problem inside the grinder that’s not allowing you to reset the circuit.

I have a kind of an update.

I’ll spare you the run-down of all of what I’ve done, but I checked all the switches at the breaker box with a multimeter and everything is sending power out like it should. I used a tone-tracer to confirm the dead circuit was connected, and traced things up into the attic–that’s a problem–there’s no walk-boards up there.

I contacted an electrician who kind of blew me off and said “that shouldn’t be the case.” Helpful.

I felt like it was a long-shot, but I contacted the inspectors, and the dude was a GEM. I cannot say enough nice things about them. Anyway–he pulled up my report and looked at what I was talking about–how the GFCI was noted as redundant.

“Yeah we were worried something exactly like this might happen–we couldn’t locate the other device and noted it because we were worried this would happen, and without knowing where or how to reset the tripped device, you’re up a creek.”

He confirmed I’m at the mercy of either trying to locate the device myself or hiring someone to do it–but we are operating under the presumption there’s an in-line device that’s been tripped–the redundancy device.

RE: hiring someone–The wires all trace up into the attic. The attic space has no walkboards–if the device is up there, the inspectors surely wouldn’t have found it, because they refused to get up there without any walkboards and with the blown insulation obscuring the joists.

We have two ceiling repairs–methinks some “brave” handyman who said “I can get up there” to do duct work or electrical put a foot through after missing stepping on a joist.

The other potential location is behind a problematic holly bush, if it were an outdoor GFCI. Since all the outdoor outlets are knocked out, I really hope this is the case.

I have contacted a landscape guy who was supposed to cut the bushes back a few weeks ago, but we are dealing with arctic temps and the local news sensationalized this coldsnap, which made him VERY BUSY leading up to it–I hope he will have time to trim them back when we thaw out soon.

I don’t know what else to do.

I can try to tone-trace locate it, but this house is vast and crowded and has antique showcases and junk all over. It’s a “finding something” nightmare.