Which was the case I mentioned…did they ever say if he felt better after re-reassignment surgery?
Well Im certain he felt better than trying to act as a girl when he was a guy.
Tzel of course transexuals will not be 100% female or male in their mind but there are no other gender identifications.
The thing is most of the female “mind” is caused by horomones so for almost every intent and purpose it would be female, much more female than male.
So from a puritan standpoint your right, but then from a puritan standpoint most women don’t have female minds.
Whether it be understanding the concept or accepting it, you still do have a problem with it. If that wasn’t true, then why’d you start this thread?
BTW, you still haven’t answered Anthracite’s question as to why this bothers you.
Then this is GD material.
If you wanted reasonable discussion, then why is this in the Pit? Placing it here implies you’re aiming for a certain tone of discussion. If there are attacks here, it shouldn’t be a surprise to you.
Tell you what. I have my psych books here. Will you believe what they say? Here goes anyway…
Okay. flips page
How can a man be born with a woman’s gender identity? We don’t know. But obviously, it, and its opposite, happens.
How is a gender identity formed? Years ago, it was believed that gender identity depended entirely on how one was raised: if you were treated like a girl, you developed a female gender identity. It was the reasoning behind John Colapinto’s being raised as a girl after his circumcision went awry. (Hope that doesn’t bring JDT in here!)
But as things turned out (below), they clearly didn’t take something into account. And that something was that your gender identity is a lot more complex than being raised a certain way.
The significance of Colapinto’s case is that it implies that people are born with their gender identities preinstalled, so to speak, and that trying to alter things is a very bad idea.
However, even if your gender identity is set at birth, it does not discount the possibility that you can be born with the wrong one for your anatomical sex. I don’t think that’s too hard to digest.
Then what was the point of that post? Did you really expect to post something like that, in the Pit no less, and expect people not to make assumptions about you?
FTR, the only assumption I made the first time I read your OP was that you were uninformed. That’s it. I still don’t think that conclusion was off the mark.
If I made any more assumptions about you after that, they were based on your later posts.
I never said it was. Obviously, I need to be more specific. For you, Tzel, to be transsexual, you would have to dislike with your man’s body, and know you should have been born into a woman’s body. You would have felt this way from a very young age.
I think I’m the one who should be wildly applauding you.
I understand that, and I agree. But transsexuals are phrasing the experience and feelings the best way they know how. Unless you’re transsexual, you’re in no position to argue that or critcize that.
Think about it: your gender identity is thrust upon you because of your anatomical sex. What if it conflicts with your own feelings of who you are? Since there’s only two (basic) genders, how else can you describe it, other than to say the one you have doesn’t match the body you’re in? That you’re in the wrong body?
Re: John Colapinto–
If it’s the case I read about, no, he never adjusted to life as a female. He always felt different. He had a lot of problems in school and with his family (IIRC a common tale among transsexuals). It wasn’t until much later, when he started asking questions about his medical history or something that the truth came out. After he found out, he decided to live as a man. He’s done work to discredit the idea that gender identity can be changed after birth.
You’re changing things around. If you read the post to which I was responding, in which I was suggested as having a “problem,” you will see that it is phrased, “have a problem with transsexuals.” I took issue with that, because I have no such “problem.”
I’m taking issue with the assumption that males can be born with female minds and vice versa. It “bothers” me because I believe it is incorrect.
Because a flame can be reasonable. In fact, I believe the best flames are. A certain tone of discussion is affecteed, but tone is a different quality than the manner in which any argument is presented.
Will I believe a textbook, especially in a field with as much disagreement as social sciences, psychology in particular? Maybe, but they are by no means conclusive. A geometry textbook gives facts. A psychology textbook gives you a large quantity of personal opinion and interpretation.
Okay. flips page
Hmmm, if you read carefully, you’ll find that the textbook actually is supporting my view, in its own ambiguous way, more than the opposing view being expressed in this thread. Although I’m not sure how comfortable I am being supported by a source as shaky as a psych textbook. Flip to “Gender” or “Gender Identity” in your glossary and see what it says. I am quite certain that there are often discrepancies between gender identity and anatomical sex.
Besides, my friends in the gay/lesbian community have consistently expressed disgust for the idea of a “gender identity disorder” being defined in psychology. Granted, my experience with the prevailing attitude in this issue is limited to my own second-hand experience, but that’s how I understand it.
Once again, look up the definition of gender identity, and you’ll see that a man with a woman’s gender identity is exactly what I’ve been claiming takes place.
You claim something is “obvious,” apparently because you see its definition in a textbook. That’s a foolish way to seek knowledge.
Not at all. However, when you say “the wrong one,” you must elaborate. Do you mean, this person will have one of two discrete gender identities: “man” or “woman,” in addition to the possibilities for anatomical sex: “male,” “female,” “intersexed,” etc.?
Or when you say “the wrong one,” do you mean, “one among a great variation of experiences of inherent gender identity that may or may not feel compatible with the physical body.”
I would agree with you if you were using the second definition. I would not agree with the first definition, which implies that the mind of a transsexual female->male is the same kind of mind as in a male, and vice versa. I believe that the inherent gender identity, while very complex, does not include the possibility of the mind of one sex to exist in the body of the other, being wholly unaffected by having grown and developed in that body.
My point was simply to give everyone reading a brief perspective on the source of the complaint. If I had the choice to do it over, I might have rephrased the whole thing and posted in GD. However, I was just in the mood to complain in the pit. Besides, it’s good for one to invite criticism of their ideas. It allows them to see if they can defend them.
Hmm, your use of the word “uninformed” seems to me to imply that you think there is a fairly well-known, mostly proven “information,” of which I have been deprived. I don’t think that this definitive knowledge exists yet, so you should call us all, ultimately, “uninformed,” if you mean it this way.
If you think I am “uninformed,” about the prevailing attitudes and opinions concerning transgenderism, then that is simply a poor choice of words. I am, and have long been, quite familiar with much of the theory of transgenderism, but I do not subscribe to the belief that a truly male mind can be born into a female body, or vice-versa. (There’s that word again.)
I never said it was. Obviously, I need to be more specific. For you, Tzel, to be transsexual, you would have to dislike with your man’s body, and know you should have been born into a woman’s body. You would have felt this way from a very young age.
I’m not criticizing the experience, or the way people phrase it. It’s simply that internal feelings and emotions are difficult if not impossible to put into words. Saying that one is a “male in a female’s body,” is shorthand, only a means of describing a myriad of complex urges and feelings in very limited lingual terms. I don’t think it can be taken as literally true at face value, for all the reasons I’ve repeated before regarding the differences between minds that are parts of female bodies or male bodies.
Now, there is another distinction to be made here. Having a body that does not seem to match the mind does not necessarily mean that that mind must be a mind of the opposite sex. It could just be a mind that is signficantly different somehow from the predominant mind of their sex. There is not a basis to say that this mind must therefore be a mind of the opposite sex. Minds do not fall into two narrow categories. They are widely varied, affected by many different influences. One of these is whether the mind is part of a male or female body. A mind in a male body, no matter what non-ordinary characteristics it has, is not be the same as a female mind, or vice-versa.
I don’t have the time for a long post, as it’s after 2am and I must be nuts for being online at all, but I will address one thing, since it was in the OP:
Then you may as well criticize the phrase, “When I saw him from across the room, my heart skipped a beat!” Same thing.
Yes, AudreyK, I agree with you completely.
I’ve been trying to stay away from this thread, because I still don’t understand the purpose of the OP, and I’m trying not to get angry. I sure hope that the entire purpose of this Pit thread was not to argue on the choice of (perhaps over-simplified) words that a TG person uses to describe the incredibly strong, complex, overpowering, and confusing feelings that they go through in their process towards discovering where they can be most happy in life. Because if so, that’s really going to make me angry.
I’m not even going to argue the science - I’m sick and tired of arguing with people about it for years, and others are doing it pretty well. I believe the science supports well the notion of a female-acting brain in a male body. But I will take issue with some points:
From the OP:
You realize, intentionally or not, that this is an opening line similar to “Some of my best friends are Jewish…”
(emphasis added)
The short descriptive phrase “feels like a woman born with a man’s body” does as well for describing the situation in as few words as possible as anything else. Believe me, no casual encounter is interested in hearing about how a lifetime of gender dysphoria recognized from a very early age, physical and sexual abuse and torture, assault, rape, ridicule, mockery, threats, ostracism, self-mutilation, suicide attempts, and pain - incredible overwhelming pain - end up shaping the complex individual one is.
And to top this all off - good Goddess man, turn off the bolding, and line up your quotes. It’s honestly a little hard for me to follow some of your points, which is sad if I am misinterpreting some of them.
Sorry this is rather late into the thread, but the Native Indian third-gender term you were looking for is ‘berdache’, I believe. There is a brilliant book on the subject by Walter L. Williams, called The Spirit and the Flesh.
A third-gender role persists in modern (East)Indian society- traditionally they’re cross-dressing eunuchs, but I believe they also incorporate hermaphrodites. If you’re stuck in your local library with nothing to do (and how I envy you your local libraries!), The Invisibles-A Tale of the Eunuchs of India by Zia Jaffrey is also a fascinating read.
And…I don’t mean to be simplistic (or worse yet, pre-post-feminist), but I wasn’t aware that I had the brain of a male or a female; I’ve always considered it a sort of sexless, ‘person’ brain, rather similar to my partner’s (I suppose you could say we share a brain, er- brain ‘type’, that is). Forensically, say, could one identify my sex from my brain alone?
I think Tzel is thinking that he has the symptons of a transsexual and that there can’t be more extreme cases than himself. I think its akin to a bisexual saying that gays “have” to have some attraction for the opposite sex because hes using his own experiences and thinking its the same for all.
Theres more to transgenderism than simply M to F or F to M theres the transvestites who have no intention of becoming a woman but still want to wear womens clothes. Theres pre-op transexuals who have no intention of getting the operation.
Some boys from the age of 5 act for all purposes like they are girls. What are they other than female minds in male bodys.
**
Haven’t I addressed this already? I’m not claiming my experiences are anything similar to anyone else’s. I was giving nothing but a bit of personal information, for educational purposes only, if you will.
What do you base this on? Stereotypes of how you think boys and girls should act. What are they other than female minds in male bodies? Male minds that act in stereotypically female ways.
The words a person uses to describe themself is not what I’m complaining about. I’m complaining about the segment of people that take it as God’s honest truth that that is the cause, simply for no other reason than it has been drilled into their head that that is the right way to think, that there are two kinds of minds, male and female. One can be born into the other body, and such a person is entirely, in character, personality, and emotion, a member of the opposite sex. I don’t believe things are that simple. I don’t believe such an oversimplification should be pushed as unquestionable truth.
:rolleyes: Yes, I’m quite aware of that. The sentence itself has become something of a cliche after hearing many people using sentences such as these to preface statements like “…but I think they’re mostly greedy bastards.” Now, notice I did not go on to say, “…but I think they’re sinners and should go to hell.”
Once again, people are misrepresenting my intent, thinking I am attacking the transsexuals themselves. I’m simply saying that I’m not going to base my entire knowledge of the human mind on the fact that some people feel compelled to describe their experience in such a way.
Sorry. It gets difficult to remember to type every single tag when you’re responding to a long post with many levels of quoting. I’ll preview more thoroughly.
The day people start telling me about their friends were at a party, and saw someone so gorgeous, that he actually caused their heart to stop beating for a moment, I’ll criticize that too.
You must not be very much fun at parties, then. I can’t believe someone has been able to mature to adulthood without hearing of the figurative use of language. Do you criticize blind people for saying “I see what you mean”, too?
I had a nice reply written out, and then I read this:
If this is the position you’re going to take towards my cites, then I’m done with this thread. It doesn’t make a lick if difference what I say and what my sources are, because you’re just going to dismiss them all, because of the “large quantity” of “disagreement”, “personal opinion”, and “interpretation” in psychology and other social sciences. So… see ya.
Re : Indian eunuchs (hijras).
The master : Why are Indian eunuchs warned about unsafe sex?
Next – shop talk.
Biologically, chromosomes account for very little of sex determination. One gene on the Y chromosome, SRY, makes testes determining factor, which triggers a cascade of factors to determine primary and secondary sexual characteristics (the brain included).
Problems can arise with mutations of genes involved in this cascade. Furthermore, since most of these encode androgen producing enzymes or androgen receptors, the gene products are sensitive to environmental cues (like external androgens).
Defects in the pathway can range from an XY individual being totally phenotypically female (as this is the default route of development). Androgen insensitive XY individuals may not know they are genetically male until they do not menstruate. They have primordial testes which have to be removed as they often become malignant. By all outward (and inward) appearance, they are female. I believe Jamie Lee Curtis has this disorder.
Mutations or anomalies further down in the pathway can lead to more subtle defects which place a child somewhere in between genders (both in body and mind). Note that with external hormones, a female fetus may also become partially phenotypically male.
So : Gender determination is a very sensitive pathway. As I mentioned above, nearly 2% of births have genital malformation. And since genital formation shares some pathways with brain development, it is quite conceivable that you can be born with the “mind of a woman in the body of a man” or vice versa.
Don’t blindly think that because you haven’t heard of it, it is impossible.
I should clarify that androgen insensitive XY individuals have a blunt ending vagina with no uterus (and of course no ovaries). They are tall with little body hair, small breasts, and somewhat masculine facies (high, angular cheekbones, etc.) They are often considered quite attractive by men. I don’t know for a fact that Jamie Lee Curtis is this, but I have heard this from at least 10 different sources. I have heard that she has had breast implants and adopted children.
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled debate.
sigh The “source” you were using was a definition in a textbook. Not a study. Not an experiment. A definition. A textbook definition is not an arbiter of truth. It provides no information of significance, and using the truth of a textbook definition as an assumed premise leads to unreliable conclusion.
You don’t see that distinction I’m making between figurative language, and the literal reinterpretation of figurative language. To take your example, I would criticise someone who said, “So I was talking to Fred, the blind guy, and you wouldn’t believe what happened. The meaning of my statement actually appeared to him!”
Tzel, may I kindly suggest that you are blathering on about something you know absolutely nothing about, and that you should simply shut up and listen to what transgendered people are actually telling you instead of presuming to tell us how we feel?
I don’t give a damn what some textbook says about transsexuals. Much of the medical literature about sex and gender is just plain wrong (John Money, for example, was a complete idiot). I know how I feel. Your diatribe on language and categories and labels has left me angry in a visceral way that I can’t really express in words.
I am not a woman in a man’s body because it’s my body and I’m not a man. (The only way I can think of to be a woman in a man’s body requires bodyswapping technology, which is strictly the realm of science fiction.) The fact that I was born with inappropriate genitals is an unfortunate fact of life which I am dealing with with all deliberate haste. As far as I’m concerned, my chromosomes, genitals, and everything else amount to a birth defect, which I am merely getting corrected to the extent that medical science allows. If you want to call this self-deception, then fine, call it that. But don’t call it that to my face or so help me I’ll break yours.
Good on ya’, Kelly—you’re right about John Money. I used to live in B’more, and he was a notorious nut who never should have been practicing medicine in the first place.
Best of luck—hope everything’s going well for you!
Hi Kelly…I was loathe to get into this discussion but it interests me quite a bit. I’ve been surfing around on the internet trying to find information on the subject. Well not necessarily on transgendered individuals but crossdressing. I couldn’t find much medical information on the subject until I discovered that cross dressing is called Transvestic Fetishism and is covered in the diagnostic manual. Then I saw writings on the controversy in the psychiatric community. It seems that while homosexuality was dropped from the manual back in the 70s Childhood Gender Identity Dysphoria (or something like that) and other sexual manifestations that are called parahillias like Frotterism (I think that’s right, spelling wrong I think…rubbing up agains unsuspecting folks on buses and stuff), Sexual Masochism, Sexual Sadisim, Pedophillia, and Transvestic Fetishism are still considered mental disorders.
Of course IMHO nothing is a disorder as long as you are happy with it and you aren’t hurting or infringing on the rights of others with whatever it may be. Anyway, my goal was to attempt to understand these practices. Problem is they are all complicated and personal issues. Do you think it’s OK to receive treatment for things like say cross dressing if it has impaired or reduced the quality of your life?
Needs2know