Transsexual Question

[Joe_Cool]

I’m not attacking what anybody thinks they are. I think it’s silly and taken to an extreme, but i’m not attacking it.

What I am attacking is the reiterated belief that the transgendered person is under no moral or ethical obligation to reveal to their partners the fact that they are not what they seem to be. That is dishonest and despicable. Misrepresenting your financial status or job in order to score a girl who wouldn’t be interested otherwise is one thing (and bad - I’m not condoning it), but misrepresenting your sex is an entirely different level of deception. And no, I don’t think it should be revealed on the first date. I think it should be revealed before things ever progress as far as a date. Regardless of how unenlightened and uncool straight dope considers it, I would not go on a date or enter into any even remotely romantic situation with a man - even one who looks like a woman… And if I were fooled into doing so, I would be extremely angry. Even if it just meant staring into each other’s eyes or a peck on the cheek. Some people don’t shape their morality based on public perception.

Regarding self image, as I said above I’m not attacking the concept itself. But, let me make an analogy:

My self-image is something like this: I think of myself as having a sort of GQ-ish face (the magazine, not the forum), a solid, strong, athletic body, and unbeatable fighting skills.

Then I see a mirror, and the man I see looking back at me is not at all how I see myself: An average-looking face, slightly pale body that is about 10 pounds heavier and a bit less muscular than it should be, and somewhat less than deadly.

Now the dilemma is that the first description is my honest self-image. That’s how I see myself in my mind. But reality doesn’t bear it out. No matter how much I might believe that I’m an adonis trapped in an out-of-shape body, the fact is that I do not look like what I imagine myself as. The difference between me and KellyM is that I accept reality. If I believed I was a woman, no amount of wishing would make it so, and no amount of surgery would make it real, any more than wearing a muscle suit would make me a bodybuilder.

And regarding the “fight against ignorance” that everybody likes to invoke so often, see my last post. A woman cannot produce sperm or impregnate another woman, as KellyM has done. A woman does not have XY chromosomes. And a woman is not born with male plumbing. KellyM, et al, may believe that they are women, they may look like women, and they may have undergone surgery to make them appear to be women under all but the most thorough examinations, but they Are. Not. Women. That is not an attack. It is a fact.

And eve, don’t group me. And don’t make stupid hyperbole. I’m not interested in a lawsuit or trying to wipe anybody off the face of the earth, so quit acting like a drama queen. I don’t give a damn what you do to your body or who you involve in your love life. But be f-ing honest about it. It’s wrong to date a heterosexual man who is unaware of your situation, when you are yourself biologically a man. It is deceptive. It is fraudulent. I’m searching for the cite now, but the standard definition is having sex against the will of one of the participants. If a man drugs or gets a woman drunk to lower her resistance, it can be considered rape, depending on the circumstances. I’m pretty sure that posing as the opposite sex in order to accomplish sex fraudulently is the same type of situation. Sex with a man is against my will. If I were fooled into it by a cleve surgeon, I would feel violated and angry. That is rape, whether it meets the legal definition or not.

** Did you know, Joe, how many things can happen or not happen in the womb? By your definition, is an XXY a male or a female? What about all the other forms of intersex people?**

Yeah, I’m well aware. But we’re not talking about XXY people, are we? We’re talking about men who want to be women, and women who want to be men. And as for definitions, I don’t know. Does the reproductive system work? Is the person capable of giving birth or causing a pregnancy? If so, there’s your answer. Whichever set of pipes works is what you are. If neither, then a) I really don’t know, and b) it’s not what we’re talking about.

[Lamia]

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
**
A woman does not have XY chromosomes.
**

I’m sure the androgen insensitive women of the world will be thrilled to hear that they’re not women after all, despite being born with vulvas.

**
And a woman is not born with male plumbing. KellyM, et al, may believe that they are women, they may look like women, and they may have undergone surgery to make them appear to be women under all but the most thorough examinations, but they Are. Not. Women. That is not an attack. It is a fact.
**

No, it is an opinion. And not a particularly rational one at that. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I’m inclined to say it’s a duck. And if she looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and acts like a woman, she’s a woman.

[tracer]

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
A woman cannot produce sperm or impregnate another woman, as KellyM has done. A woman does not have XY chromosomes. And a woman is not born with male plumbing. KellyM, et al, may believe that they are women, they may look like women, and they may have undergone surgery to make them appear to be women under all but the most thorough examinations, but they Are. Not. Women. That is not an attack. It is a fact.

I hate to break the news to you, Joe_Cool, but:

(A) If KellyM is post-op (and I haven’t been following all the details of this thread well enough to know if she is, but if she is), then she would have had her testes removed as part of the surgery. Which means she cannot produce sperm or impregnate another woman!

(B) A few people are born with XX chromosomes yet have male plumbing. A few people are born with XY chromosomes yet have female plumbing. They’re not common, but they do exist. What would you have those people fill out on their Drivers License application where it asks “M or F”?

[Guinastasia]

Originally posted by istara
I personally feel that I would not at this stage feel comfortable dating a transexual person. I feel terrible saying this, and perhaps if I personally knew more transexual people I would not feel this way. This may be just my ignorance/prejudice showing and I am sorry for that. But that is only on a sexuo-romantic level, I would have no issue at all working or having a platonic friendship with a transexual person of either gender, at any stage of transition.

I have to admit, I feel the same way. And before anyone compares it to race, remember that sex is a lot different-it DOES make a difference in who you want to date. And I don’t think that makes me a bigot.

On the other hand, Joe, I think you’re acting extremely inconsiderate and rude.

So, I see everyone’s point, I guess.

[JerseyDiamond]

First, I would just like to thank you, Lazz, for answering my questions the best you could.

*Originally posted by Priam *
JerseyDiamond and Joe_Cool…

Do you want violence inflicted on transfolk? Because its been my experience that the ones I have encountered are even more at risk of it than I am when it is known by others. Disclosing their status on the first date is dangerous, if not potentially lethal. While I am personally of the mind that sex is a powerful thing and should be entered into with a spirit of complete honesty, kissing and holding hands with a transperson isn’t gonna give you cooties or turn you trans. I’ve hugged transfolk and I still like my penis!

(PS: If this is rather garbled, its because I need coffee)

No, I would never want harm inflicted on anyone, that is why I suggested feeling them out (so to speak) first.

I don’t think that kissing could give cooties, but I do think it’s a form of rape if the other party is misled; possibly sexual harrassment (if the other party new and they were against it, it would be sexual harrassment
I have hugged all kinds of people. I don’t know for certain if they were male or female, now, but I still like my vagina. Although I don’t know what your point is with that.

Can you explain to me how you would be harmed by holding hands or kissing a transsexual without knowing they are transsexual any more than one could be hurt by being a bigot and unknowingly kissing someone whose ancestry is not to ones liking?

Because the guy or girl [IMHO]pretending[/IMHO] to be a female or male is deceiveing the other party. It’s illegal.
That is how it is different from race. I really cannot see how you can compare apples and steak.

For example, how is having sex with a 45 year old fully transitioned MtF woman different from having sex with a post menopausal woman?

The difference is that one was born a woman, and the other had a surgery to have his genital area altered and made to be similar to a womans. The difference is that the man- made/engineered woman or man is not what I or anyone else I know would seek. It is wrong to many people and they would be very upset.

Lamia, I am sure that if a person can sue MCDONALDS for serving hot coffee, something can be done with someone being misled.
Like false advertisement or fraud. Fraud and false advertisment is illegal.

Hopefully they’ll be smart enough to not enter into a relationship rashly or on the basis of lust, rather than love.

I would hope so, too.

And maybe you’ll be able to teach them to not rush to sex on the first date, or at Dopefests, and to actually build a relationship with and love the person first.

Agreed!

And hopefully if they love the person, they’ll actually love them for being them, and not suddenly run in horror if they discover that the person they are with may be trans.

I disagree for a few reason.

My first reason I will not get into, because this is not a thread about religion. I think everyone knows my stance for that reason.

Second, you cannot love someone for being themselves when they are not.
Third, how can you love someone who has [IMO] Lied [/IMO] to you. Not just a, " I don’t really drive a Mercedes, I really drive a Pinto".
There is a huge difference between the two lies.

I feel that any person who is asked about their gender status should answer openly and honestly about it to their partner, or else tell them “none of your business”, and the questioner can decide where to go from there. I don’t support lying of skirting around the issue, and I can’t feel that anyone does.

Agreed!

I want all of you to keep in mind that:

I do not wish harm on anyone in this world!
I expect the same from all of you with all people. Lying, or not being totally truthful is harmful.

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by Lamia *
I’m sure the androgen insensitive women of the world will be thrilled to hear that they’re not women after all, despite being born with vulvas.

And it’s cases and conditions like that which slap people across the face who want to separate everyone into two genders, defined solely by their chromosones.

**If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I’m inclined to say it’s a duck. And if she looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and acts like a woman, she’s a woman. **

Of course, I agree wholeheartedly. However, in all the time I’ve followed this issue on the SDMB, I’ve never seen anyone change their opinion to accept that gender != chromosones, or seen anyone change from being sneeringly hostile towards TG/TS persons to actually having understanding and acceptance towards them. Shit, look at the subtle mockery and clear unacceptance that’s already happened in this thread, which is destined before long for the Pit.

It’s as bad as gun control arguments - the same players strut their proofs and opinions on the stage, the same hurt happens, no one is convinced by the end of the drama, and nothing changes. The hate remains, and ignorance is never defeated.

[Joe_Cool]

Anthracite, get over yourself. You don’t need to hyperbolize and throw around hot-button words like “hate” and "ignorance"when they aren’t appropriate. My position is not one of ignorance, nor is it one of hate. Those are just emotionally charged words that people like to use that mean “people who don’t agree with me”.

Tracer said
(A) If KellyM is post-op (and I haven’t been following all the details of this thread well enough to know if she is, but if she is), then she would have had her testes removed as part of the surgery. Which means she cannot produce sperm or impregnate another woman!

From here:

Here’s a clue, because you so badly need one. Kelly and I got into bed together naked, like we do nearly every day. We made love. During the course of of which some of her ejaculate, apparently filled with lots of wonderful living woman sperm entered into my vagina. The swimmers therein swam their way up into my cervix and, because I was ovulating, united with my ova and formed Loren. Grand cost: about a buck to clean the sheets afterward. Oh, and about nine dollars for the pregnancy test nearly 6 weeks later. We, me, KellyM, and my husband were shocked and pleasantly surprised by the results. We had thought her to be at best infertile by now. I don’t think my husband has ever been more surprised or happy. He had been trying to get me to try to get pregnant by whatever means for the last 13 years or so. Mind you, he and I do the gymnastics required frequently, but there are no swimmers to do the required work.

(B) A few people are born with XX chromosomes yet have male plumbing. A few people are born with XY chromosomes yet have female plumbing. They’re not common, but they do exist. What would you have those people fill out on their Drivers License application where it asks “M or F”?

See what I wrote. Does the plumbing work? Then that’s what they fill out.

Don’t just assume you know more than I do, do a search.

[even_sven]

Pecking someone of the same sex on the cheek is now *immoral[/]?!?! I better call up my Italian uncle pretty quick!

Look, Joe I know this is a hard and probably pretty scary concept. But it is a reality. What do you think these people should do? They can’t help what they feel, and even the best physciatric treatment can’t help what they feel. I am sure that if the whole Adonis thing was ruining your life, you could pop on over to the hospital, get a few pills and some therapy, and you’d be able to go on with your life.

But transgendered people can’t do that. I don’t expect you to ever really “get” the idea (unless someone you love turns out to be transgendered and you realize that your not gonna stop loving/being attracted to someone because their original plumbing isn’t what you’ve expected) but the least you can do is try to understand that these are for the most part good honest people. They do not want to trick anyone. They do not want to deceive people. They just want to live normal lives.

And most of them can’t live normal lives as they sex they were born. All that is there is in that is torment. You know how many transgendered people kill themselves. “Just dealing with it” and “getting on with life” is not an option. It’s not even possible. The most likely outcome of that approuch is suicide. Sexual Reassignment Surgery isn’t the answer for everyone, but “just stop being transgendered” is an answer for nobody.

I know this is scary for you. And I know this is uncomfortable for you. But can you at least trust that transgendered people, their friends and their doctors are just trying to get through life as best they know how. You can keep on believing “a man is a man and a woman is a woman” all you want, but please try to act with compassion and understanding towards those that don’t have the luxery of thinking that.

[tracer]

*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond *
Because the guy or girl [IMHO]pretending[/IMHO] to be a female or male is deceiveing the other party. It’s illegal.

Yeah, I know there are a few old laws against “pretending to be a woman” that are still on the books. These laws, back when they were still enforced, tended to criminalize transvestites rather than transexuals.

But such a law seems awfully strange, considering the number of deceptions routinely thrown about in the dating arena:[ul][li]You turned out to already be married, and I kissed you? Deceptive, but there’s no law against it.[/li][li]You said you were rich but you were really poor, and I kissed you? Deceptive, but there’s no law against it.[/li][li]You lied to me about not having kids, and I kissed you? Deceptive, but there’s no law against it.[/li][li]You turned out to be HIV positive, and I kissed you? Deceptive – and potentially lethal – but there’s no law against it.[/li]You turned out to have been born with the opposite set of genitalia, and I kissed you? Lock you up and throw away the key![/ul]

[Guinastasia]

Jersey, while I think most of what you’ve said makes sense, (pause for JD to regain her breath!), the McDonalds coffee case was NOT simply a matter of hot coffee.

I think we need a Stella’s Law similiar to Godwin’s Law about that damn coffee case.

[KellyM]

tracer: I’m still pre-op, although I have been cleared for surgery and will probably start the process of arranging it as soon as my employment situation stabilizes out.

I find myself having to agree with Eve and Anthracite on the value of actually arguing wth the likes of Joe_Cool and JerseyDiamond. As far as I can tell, their fundamental position is that transsexuals are inherently immoral, and they are searching for a rationalization that supports this irrational conviction and that they hope will convert others to agree with them. I have no intention of assisting them in that process.

Our hope is not to change these people, as they cannot be changed, but instead to educate those whose opinions are not already cast in stone, and we can do that best by not falling to their level.

[KellyM]

tracer: I’m still pre-op, although I have been cleared for surgery and will probably start the process of arranging it as soon as my employment situation stabilizes out.

I find myself having to agree with Eve and Anthracite on the value of actually arguing wth the likes of Joe_Cool and JerseyDiamond. As far as I can tell, their fundamental position is that transsexuals are inherently immoral, and they are searching for a rationalization that supports this irrational conviction and that they hope will convert others to agree with them. I have no intention of assisting them in that process.

Our hope is not to change these people, as they cannot be changed, but instead to educate those whose opinions are not already cast in stone, and we can do that best by not falling to their level.

[DoctorJ]

And as for definitions, I don’t know. Does the reproductive system work? Is the person capable of giving birth or causing a pregnancy? If so, there’s your answer. Whichever set of pipes works is what you are. If neither, then a) I really don’t know, and b) it’s not what we’re talking about.

People with complete AI can neither give birth nor cause a pregnancy, as they are female by all outward appearances (they are often said to be “particularly feminine”) but have only rudimentary internal female structures. They generally don’t get diagnosed until they have primary amenorrhea, and lack of a menstrual cycle might be the only thing to ever indicate the condition. This is despite having XY chromosomes. (Both Jamie Lee Curtis and Nicole Kidman have been rumored to have this condition, although neither has ever been confirmed.)

Given this, do you at least admit that it can be a little more complicated than XX=woman, XY=man?

Dr. J

[diksichik]

*Originally posted by ouisey *
**
I don’t understand it though. If someone told me, “actually, you’re a man, so you need to dress like a man and tell everyone else you’re a man”, even though I know for a fact that I’m a woman, I could do it. I’d be bugged by it, and think that everyone was stupid, but I certainly wouldn’t want to commit suicide over it.
thx **

clearly you are not trangendered. (there’s nothing wrong that

based upon one’s exterior appearance, the entire social fabric treats you in certain ways. schools, doctors, parents, every authority i can think of says, “you are fe/male. you can or must do this and this, you cannot do this and this.”

but even more subtley, and i think more importantly, every person you meet socializes with you based upon your presumed sex. men and women socialize differently. if you appear to be male, you are grouped with the males. one can pretend to fit in, but one never does if one is differently gendered. one is thus living a lie. most people do not enjoy living a lie. tg’s are no different. once a tg changes his/her appearance to match interior gender, they STOP living a lie.
as for joe: are you deathly afraid that you are going to be attracted to a woman, kiss her, and find out she once had a penis?? if so, i think that in order to avoid this, you should ask every woman you are attracted to, “are you really a man??” you risk pissing off a possible mate, but since transexuals obviously can’t be counted on to let you know, you need take it into your own hands to get the straight dope up front. really. take responsibilty to ensure you are in a relationship you are comfortable with instead of making others responsible for your comfort.

[Sterra]

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
**but they Are. Not. Women. That is not an attack. It is a fact.
**

Why not? I mean obviously you believe that to be true, but I’d say that you are lying if you tell other people that. It is a fact that KellyM is a woman and saying she is not is a lie.

[Glory]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool
but they Are. Not. Women. That is not an attack. It is a fact.

I find this particularly interesting coming from a Christian. What is a body compared to the soul? The body might be biologically male/female…but the person, the soul, the mind, the spirit, the essence is the opposite.

I think it’s a little ridiculous to think that a transgendered person might attempt a romantic relationship with a person like Jersey Diamond or Joe Cool, that it would get any farther than a 1 hour conversation where they would reveal their repugnance. Who would possibly want to pursue a person who was quite obviously so incredibly uncomfortable with the idea?

Back in your single days, if you met someone incredibly attractive and you were talking with them and the attractive person said stuff like “oh, I could never date a Christian, I just dislike the idea so much,” would you then trick them into dating you just to say “surprise, I’m a Christian!”

If you ever fell into the situation where a person admitted to having a crush but had been actually born a different gender, why would it be so hard to say, “I’m flattered by your interest, but I could never have a romantic relationship with someone not born a man/woman. I hope we could still be friends.”

To those of you who have patiently explained and helped fight ignorance in this thread, I’d like to thank you. For every 2 people you will never be able to reach, there are 10 more like myself who now have a hint of understanding. I just finished reading “Dress Codes” by Noelle Howey, a very interesting non fiction account of how a young girl grew up with her transgendered father, very illuminating!

[Glory]

One more thing…there’s a lot of great quotes in the book, but I thought this one was great:

“I was never sure what the pre-requisites for womanhood should ential. The ability to menstruate? To bear children? Lots of bona fide XX carriers had no uterus, no eggs, no desire to procreate. Was being a woman just about having a vagina? If that was the case, then Women’s Studies should consist of just one class: Anatomy 101.”

[Guinastasia]

Question-does one get a hysterectomy if one is FtM?

If I were to dress up as a woman in order to trick lesbians into having sex with me, it would be considered rape in the eyes of the law. A man pretending to be a woman and having sex with other men (or vice versa) is guilty of the very same level of fraud and deception.

Oh yeah? Prove it. Bullshit. It’s not fucking rape, and to say that it is diminishes what REAL rape victims suffer.

I would think, though, if someone gets married and doesn’t tell their spouse about this, then yeah, that’s not right, and I’d be pissed. (Because it’s an issue of trust and such).

[Sterra]

*Originally posted by Glory *
**I think it’s a little ridiculous to think that a transgendered person might attempt a romantic relationship with a person like Jersey Diamond or Joe Cool, that it would get any farther than a 1 hour conversation where they would reveal their repugnance. Who would possibly want to pursue a person who was quite obviously so incredibly uncomfortable with the idea?
**

Actually you can and do have people who are like Jersey Diamond or Joe Cool and are transgendered. They react badly to it because they don’t understand it and think that it just has something to do with being gay, but there is nothing biblically speaking that says it is wrong.

You wouldn’t think that you would get some people on transgender focused boards talking about how being gay is a disease that can be cured, but there is a suprising amount of fundamentalist transgendered christians.

[Lamia]

*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond *
**
Because the guy or girl [IMHO]pretending[/IMHO] to be a female or male is deceiveing the other party. It’s illegal.

**

It is not illegal.

**
That is how it is different from race. I really cannot see how you can compare apples and steak.

**

Not all that long ago it was illegal to “pass” as white if you were considered “colored” in the eyes of the law.

**
Lamia, I am sure that if a person can sue MCDONALDS for serving hot coffee, something can be done with someone being misled.

**

A person can sue McDonald’s for an accident that left them with third degree burns that required skin grafts. If that ever happens to you after kissing a transsexual then I’ll fully support your lawsuit.

If you and your husband are really so concerned about misleading people maybe you should keep your mouths shut on this subject, because your posts have been full of inaccuracies.