That’s a great incentive for openness. “Spill your guts right away, so people can hurry up and reject you!”
You still don’t understand. Do you have any reason why you don’t want to understand?
It is very necessary to know who you might be kissing or sleeping with.
This is not some little thing. This is a big deal, rather you see it that way or not.
So, I am as bad as a racist because I don’t want to sleep with a woman? I don’t think so.
It is not the same as a racial issues, no matter how hard you try to make it.
You say that revealing to a bigot could get you killed, well lying to a bigot could get you killed. Would you rather wait and find out. You may not find out he or she is a bigot for months; maybe after you have decided to tell him or her because you feel comfortable.
I wish you the best, Be careful.
Maybe, instead, while out on your date, ask a hypothetical question, or tell them about a “friend” of yours that is in that situation. See there reaction, or get their opinion.
Take it from there. If they are totally against it, don’t give yourself away. Either stay on the date, hope it ends fast, and tell him/her that you would rather not date again. You will save them from something they are against, they will go home thinking, “better off next time”, and you will go home safe and looking for your next date.
Everyone wins.
I do understand, Sterra, it’s biology.
It’s pretty cut and dry.
If it were a hermaphrodite, on the other hand, I could understand where their may be confusion on their part.
Just be careful, and try to think of the other peoples feeling too.
JerseyDiamond:
Obviously I do not believe that transsexuals are under any obligation to reveal their history “right away.” I believe I already said as much. The fact that an individual has a transsexual history is of no plausible significance in a “few day” relationship. I cannot imagine any plausible reason why someone needs to know this before kissing or holding hands, as you suggest. Do you believe that an individual who is impotent is obliged to reveal this fact right away? What about barren? Having a transsexual history, at least as a post-op, is little different from being barren.
If the person being dated really considers it important that his or her partner be fertile, he or she should ask. Assuming a person is fertile simply because they haven’t told you otherwise is unreasonable. People can be infertile for lots of reasons, and sometimes those reasons are very painful and are not appropriate subjects for casual conversation with relative strangers. Your proposed rule would require all persons rendered infertile by any means to all but wear a button announcing it in social situations in which a romantic relationship might arise. I think it is obvious that this is far more unfair and dangerous than a policy that permits withholding such personal information from casual acquaintances.
I can’t help your closed-minded attitude toward the gender of transsexuals. If I were dating, I would likely feel out any potential partner for their attitude toward transsexuals, and if I felt that someone I was considering as a partner believed as you do, I would dump them. I would probably try to do this in a way that would not reveal my history to you.
If you asked me about my gender history, I would either refuse to answer the question, or tell you the truth. I don’t lie. If you asked me about my gender history on the first date, I’d probably wonder what the hell was up with you, and quite probably dump you. I suspect that most other people would behave the same way.
Your policy of mandated disclosure will often result in the death, ostracization, or exploitation for those who follow it – that is, the ones who don’t withdraw from society to avoid being hurt. As such, I cannot recommend as I believe it is extremely harmful to a substantial segment of society, and serves only to placate the overly touchy sensibilities of a small population of rather bigoted individuals.
Why? It’s true. You’ll kids will figure out soon enough what they think about that. Heck, your kids might not even need that to be explained to them, as they might be transgendered.
How exactly would you be hurt by kissing a transgendered person? Where exactly is the damage? What all do you think needs to be disclosed upon first kissing someone? When you kiss someone you already know “what person” you are kissing- the person right in front of you. If you make a bunch of assumptions- like that they have a penis- that is your fault, not theirs. Good luck pressing charges.
I’ve got a horrible mental illness, do I have to tell that to every guy I meet?
People fall in love all the time. Surprisingly, when you fall in love with someone, a lot of pretty big things cease to matter so much. I think you’d be really surprised how often people realize that their partner’s physical sex doesn’t matter so much. Trust me- I know this in a pretty personal way. But they have to be given a chance to fall in love, and dropping that whopper before you hold freaking hands isn’t condusive to that.
These people don’t want to hurt anyone, and 99% of the time, they don’t. They just want to live normal lives. Why do you want to make this hard for them?
Well, I say you’re wrong. One plausible reason is honesty. Another is concern for the people you’re deceiving. If this “few day” relationship involves a male who is under the impression that you’re female, and involves any level of romance deeper than mere acquaintance, and you fail to disclose the fact that you are biologically a man, then IMO, you are deceptive scum. You have coerced him into a relationship (and possibly acts) that he would not have participated in willingly, had he known the truth. I wouldn’t walk down the street holding hands with a man, and the fact that the man is dressed as a woman or had his wiener cut off doesn’t change that.
If I were to dress up as a woman in order to trick lesbians into having sex with me, it would be considered rape in the eyes of the law. A man pretending to be a woman and having sex with other men (or vice versa) is guilty of the very same level of fraud and deception.
You don’t say! Yet you compare the two so easily? No, infertility shouldn’t have to be disclosed right away. But the fact that a prospective mate is a different sex than they appear to be is a whole different animal.
Ok, captain missing-the-point, you know as well as I do that JD’s point wasn’t fertility. The question of fertility is merely an obvious way that the question of your deceptive transsexual partner’s true sex can be brought into the open.
Nor can I or JD help your closed-minded attitude toward people whose desire is to date PEOPLE OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.
And the fact is that you’d be doing that person a big favor.
And if a person I was considering dating couldn’t give me a straight answer about what f-ing sex they are, the relationship would be done on the spot. shrug
Heh. Except for the bit about living your life as a woman.
And of course the root of the problem is admitting the truth, not living the lie in the first place… :rolleyes:
No matter what semantic games you play to redefine it, the fact is this: XY is male. XX is female. If you were born with functioning ovaries, you are not a man. If you were born with functioning testicles, you are not a woman. No matter how creative your surgeon is (and based on those links, the surgeons are brilliant), and no matter who agrees with you.
It is biological in one sense. Scientists are zeroing on specific brain differences, which may be caused by exposure to certain hormones in utero, that are found in transgendered people. Transgendered people are transgendered from the time they are tiny children, and likely from birth. My good friend found herself dressing up in her moms dresses as a toddler, without really knowing why the compulsion to do so was so strong. It is innate.
Did you know that even with the most intense physcological counciling and drug therapy, people with gender identity issues are never changed. Ever. If you call these issues a mental disorder, it is one with no treatment and no cure. Their gender identity is as fixed and immutable as your own.
Not that it really is a mental disorder in the classic sense. A transgendered person will tell you that their problem is not that they want to be in a different body, it is that they are in the wrong body. The body is the big problem, not the desire. They have no more interest in being cured of the desire- which is impossible, anyway- then you have of being “cured” of being a woman.
And, somewhat reluctently, the doctors agree. In order to have sexual reassignment surgery, you have to have a diagnosis in hand of some recognized gender identity disorder. Sexual reassignment surgery is a medically recognized and accepted thing to do in these cases. If it’s biology, then you know a lot more than the doctors and phsycologists out there that study these things all their lives.
So what your left with is not a lot of options. Things will never line up all nice and neat. Biology, while it may seem important to you, takes a back seat because it will never really do any good. There is no other choice.
Joe_Cool, I am a woman, your delusions to the contrary notwithstanding. You are requested to withdraw your accusation of dishonesty from this forum immediately, as such personal attacks are inappropriate in Great Debates.
It’s not an accusation, it’s an observation. And I’ll withdraw nothing.
A woman does not produce sperm, and cannot impregnate a true woman. I agree that one of us is suffering from a delusion here, but it’s definitely not me.
Oh god. This was such a great thread, before Joe_Cool stepped by. I even empathise with Jersey_Diamond’s comments - in so far as gender reassignment is a comparatively new thing to “deal” with. The honesty thing - don’t tell and be accused of “deceiving”/do tell and face instant rejection - is a tricky issue. It must be difficult for both transexuals, and their potential partners, along with fertility issues.
I don’t agree that it should be a difficult issue to teach children. It’s no different from explaining people change their hair colour, or have physical disabilities and need operations. Certain things are “icky” medically for the squeamish, but there’s no moral problem. I think it’s something to teach them when they’re a little older, and understand what gender is through their own experience. I don’t think its helpful to say to a five year old: “Mrs Jenkins down the road was born a man.” But to explain to a ten year old that their uncle was born with a medical problem and has to take special pills to help his beard grow - I see no harm or difficulty in that.
I personally feel that I would not at this stage feel comfortable dating a transexual person. I feel terrible saying this, and perhaps if I personally knew more transexual people I would not feel this way. This may be just my ignorance/prejudice showing and I am sorry for that. But that is only on a sexuo-romantic level, I would have no issue at all working or having a platonic friendship with a transexual person of either gender, at any stage of transition.
Anyway jersey - I sort of see where you’re coming from, and kellym - I see where you’re coming from too, and joe - I wish you would follow everyone else’s example of keeping it civil. This thread is about trying to understand transgenderism, not about attacking people who are, and claiming they’re “not women” or “not men”. We’re trying to fight ignorance in this thread, so please take yours away.
If it can be of any consolation, you have few chances of ever being in a long term intimate relationship with a ftm without knowing that he is ftm, since bottom surgery is far from perfect for us.
Your opinion is interesting because I was wondering is a woman would press charges in this case, you would do it, it’s interesting to know.
Although it’s different, It reminds be a bit of the Kantaras case:
http://www.ntac.org/pr/release.asp?did=67
Where an ftm’s wife tried to argue that her marriage wasn’t valid because her husband was born female, except that she was fully aware that he was transsexual when they dated.
I would say that’s more or less that, except that I wouldn’t say “want to feel womanly/manly” but “think to be/identify as a woman/man”.
I don’t want and never wanted children, so knowing that I’ll never produce spermatozoides and be able to impregnate someone doesn’t phase me. But that’s just me.
Some ftms choose to carry their own kids.
Some MTFs are lubricating yes, I don’t know how though, I think it depends on the method of surgery and particular surgeon.
For FTMs it’s a bit complicated, people usually have heard of phalloplasty, where erection is possible by using some techniques, since I’m not sure of my English to explain them, I’ll quote from here:
http://www.planetout.com/pno/people/columns/green/archive/20000816.html
Radia Forearm Flap phalloplasty:
http://www.tmeltzer.com/radial.htm
(there’s also a link explaining a metaoidioplasty on this page, but there’s a picture of it in plain sight, so beware)
But, as I’ve said in an earlier post, there’s another kind of bottom suregry for ftms:
Metoidioplasty:
The clitoris is released and wrapped in the labia minora. The urethra is lengthened to allow voiding while standing. Scrotum is created by using the labia majora, they put testicular implants then.
The erection is in this case naturally possible, since they just use what there was before.
In all cases ejaculation is not possible, although we are curious to know if a ftm who had the “female ejaculation” faculty pre-op would still retain it post-op and be able to ejaculate.
Common I don’t know, but what testosterone do to the bones of the face and the general shape of the body often results in mtfs being “read” as male. People may not be necessary aware of these differences but their eyes being accustomed to how women and men generally look, may have this “there’s something odd about this person” impression.
And I think it also depends on how long the person have taken female hormones, if any.
I know that sometimes, it has happened that people change their attitude toward me, when it comes to that sexuo-romantic level, after having know me for a while, 6 months, a year, something like that. I can understand how people can be weirded out by transfolks, though I would wage the issue is different if you fall in love and then discovered the person is trans too.
I admit I’m miffed when a guy tells me he finds me hot and cute, but don’t ever comment anymore on me when I say I’m ftm.
It seems to distress people to realize they can be attracted to a trans person.
I mean jeez, I don’t force people to have sex with me but if you find me attractive, don’t be affraid to say it!
So I have this impression I have to be better than other people to improve my odds of finding a mate, that I have to be smarter, funnier, always happy, a perfect gentleman, that I have not to gain weight, that I must exercise etc…
It’s hard sometimes not to fall in those excess.
Lol it’s like the “passing” issue, if I dress too stereotypically masculine, some people will say I’m reinforcing the gender binary, and if I dress or behave in a effeminate way, they’ll say I’m not really a transguy.
Either way I lose 
Hopefully they’ll be smart enough to not enter into a relationship rashly or on the basis of lust, rather than love.
And maybe you’ll be able to teach them to not rush to sex on the first date, or at Dopefests, and to actually build a relationship with and love the person first.
And hopefully if they love the person, they’ll actually love them for being them, and not suddenly run in horror if they discover that the person they are with may be trans.
I feel that any person who is asked about their gender status should answer openly and honestly about it to their partner, or else tell them “none of your business”, and the questioner can decide where to go from there. I don’t support lying of skirting around the issue, and I can’t feel that anyone does.
Hey, you know, you could always ask the person.
If asked directly, I feel they should answer honestly to a direct question. If they lie about that, then they are being deceptive. Being and living transgendered or transsexual is not deceptive, despite your colourful and disgusting dismissal above.
Why not? Fertility and the ability to have children is considered to be a matter of near life-and-death importance to some. You have to be respectful of those people’s feelings, don’t you?
Personally, I don’t feel that Jersey Diamond was exhibiting a “closed-minded attitude”.
Like I said, ask up-front if you want to have a serious relationship. You can decide to do what you want with the answer. I don’t see the problem.
I think you are acting like a jerk. KellyM and those like her are not “living the lie”. I don’t know why you feel you have to come in here and be this way. There were better ways to make whatever point you had.
That is great as long as people are gender-defined only by chromosones (and you left out a couple permutations). Fortunately, they are not. If a court and/or a State can legally recognize that a trans person is the opposite sex from what they were classified as when they were born, then it really doesn’t matter any more except on a personal opinion level. Which is valid for the person who holds the opinion, I suppose.
JerseyDiamond and Joe_Cool…
Do you want violence inflicted on transfolk? Because its been my experience that the ones I have encountered are even more at risk of it than I am when it is known by others. Disclosing their status on the first date is dangerous, if not potentially lethal. While I am personally of the mind that sex is a powerful thing and should be entered into with a spirit of complete honesty, kissing and holding hands with a transperson isn’t gonna give you cooties or turn you trans. I’ve hugged transfolk and I still like my penis!
(PS: If this is rather garbled, its because I need coffee)
Can you explain to me how you would be harmed by holding hands or kissing a transsexual without knowing they are transsexual any more than one could be hurt by being a bigot and unknowingly kissing someone whose ancestry is not to ones liking?
My husband’s great-grandfather was black. It is not something he talks about routinely, as anot only is it irrelevant to nearly everything, it does involve a marital infidelity by his great-grandmother. I did not know until after we were planning to get married. Had I been a bigot, I might have felt he had been lying to me because he presented himself as white. It is not a lie.
He looks white, was raised by white parents as white, and people treat him as white on a day to day basis. The only time it I can see it being truly relevant is if we were having children. In that case, there are some genetic things to be aware of because of his black ancestry, just as there are with certain other groups. That, and his children might have looked black, especially if I have black ancestors too.
The only time it does come up now is in discussions of ancestry. Sad to say, it has mattered to a few people. I was glad to find out how they felt, because I am not comfortable being friends with someone that it really mattered that much to.
Transsexualism is similar in that not knowing isn’t going to really affect someone in any real way until until they become aware of it, or are planning on having sex or having children with the person who is transsexual. Depending on how complete the transition and what kind of sex, it may not be really relevant then. For example, how is having sex with a 45 year old fully transitioned MtF woman different from having sex with a post menopausal woman?
Oh and I would just like to point out that sex (physical sexual organs), while not as complex as gender, isn’t as simple as Joe_Cool would have it,
Did you know, Joe, how many things can happen or not happen in the womb? By your definition, is an XXY a male or a female? What about all the other forms of intersex people? The lines and demarkations are a lot more blurred than most of us think. Transpeople are but one piece of that spectrum.
This would make for some wonderful t-shirts!
I’m surprised someone who is so quick to call others liars would post something like this without checking the facts first. Actually, no I’m not. I’m not surprised at all, just disappointed. I often feel disappointed in humanity when I read your posts. But I’m not going to let this false claim go unchallenged.
We’ve had a thread on this subject before, and according to Dopers knowledgable about the law then no, it would not legally be considered rape. Rape laws do not exist to protect people from being misled, they exist to protect people from being the victims of a horrible violent crime. If you were to throw off your dress and say “Ha ha, I tricked you! I’m really a man!” and the woman said “Augh! Get away from me!” but you proceeded to have sex with her anyway then that would be rape.
. . . . . In the words of Kyle.
I have been arguing with people like JerseyDiamond and Joe Cool most of my life, and their minds cannot be changed. Sadly, there are a lot of people like them (just read the papers–some don’t stop at lawsuits, they feel compelled to wipe us off the face of the earth). I’m too old and too tired to fight with them any more; logic doesn’t work. They are too mired in their mindsets to ever see another side of this issue (or a great number of issues, as we have learned).
I’ll leave the younger, more energetic, folks to carry on. I’m just sorry this nice, polite informational thread had to be tainted by their unfriendliness and willful ignorance. I’m outta here.