It’s almost comical to see you continuing to mischaracterize other people’s arguments. I didn’t say “walls don’t work”; I said the proposed Wall will not work. And it won’t, both because ropes and ladders and tunnels exist and because the majority of illegal immigrants don’t enter the country by sneaking over the border. And I note you’ve glossed over your previous characterization of opposition to Republican policies as not wanting a secure border. It’s almost as if you prefer to argue against strawmen rather than actual arguments being made.
You say the border is “not secure”. We can quibble over what constitutes “secure”, although again you’ll note that I didn’t say “the border is secure”; I said it was “is as secure as it has ever been if not moreso” which remains a true statement (and oh look - another almost comical mischaracterization). But nothing the Republicans are proposing will make it more secure. So instead of arguing that Democrats don’t want a secure border, perhaps we should ask instead why Republicans are willing to spend a vast amount of money on an ineffective bit of security theater (particularly as one might point out that Republicans cared deeply about deficit spending a mere two years ago).
And speaking of Republicans and fences, I’ll just leave this here for general consumption:
I guess Saint Ronnie didn’t care about securing the border either.
Buddy, if the thing standing between me and a life of riches and safety for my family was a wall, if what I had to do to flee persecution and death in my home country was get past a wall, I would not give two shits about that wall. History provides a useful illustration: some 40,000 people escaped eastern Germany over the borders, despite the borders being carefully watched and soviet troops having orders to fire on anyone attempting to cross. And of course, the vast, vast majority of refugees left via other means, much like today, most illegal immigrants entered the country legally and violated the terms of their visas by not leaving.
Saying “this wall will work because walls usually work” ignores the simple fact that most people, upon seeing a wall, are not desperate enough to find ways around it. Foreign refugees? They’re desperate. They will tunnel under or climb over, or find people to smuggle them over the border at crossings. Maybe some will be discouraged, but the reality is that the wall, as described by republicans, makes no fucking sense.
Well, it does, when there are propaganda radio, TV and Internet groups having the ears of many in America.
Incidentally, one should realize how sickening that propaganda is when one just notices (in an emperor has no clothes like bit) that the huge economy, with very little unemployment, that we do have right now still includes about 10 million usually working already undocumented with many new legal immigrants and (in an unrelated issue to the undocumented) with Obamacare to boot.
Well, if walls work generally, what is it about this particular wall that leads you to decree it won’t work? If your argument is that ropes, ladders and tunnels will be employed, you do not understand the purpose of the wall. No one expects it to solve the problem by itself, where we build it and—presto—border is secure! (Talk about straw!) It is one part of helping to secure the border. And I don’t think you can argue that it will not be helpful in that regard. At the very least, it’s an additional barrier keeping people out. Now, you could argue that it’s not an effective use of funds, that the money could be more effectively spent in other ways and would do a better job of securing the border. But a wall, built correctly, is an effective barrier. Go for a walk and see for yourself.
I’ve consistently argued in favor of the U.S. issuing work permits. Canada seems to have a good, workable system where people are issued work permits for eight months at a time. During that time they can come and go as they please. And they pay taxes, don’t have to live in the shadows and don’t artificially suppress wages (as long as the numbers are managed properly).
Note that Trump is only against immigration from countries like those in South America and Africa. He specifically pointed out in the Oval Office that he wanted to encourage more immigration from countries ‘like Norway’.
I’m talking about a guest worker program for seasonal work, particularly agricultural. You know, all those jobs that the left keeps telling us Americans don’t want to do.
But if I follow your logic, since we already have programs like the ones you mentioned, we don’t need anything else. Because it’s not like we have people having to work illegally, right?
Huh? What point are you trying to make? That the concept of the wall has morphed? That walls by themselves may not work as well as one would like? That the design of the wall is critical to its effectiveness? Something else?
But let’s be clear, was, like buckets wheels, and inclined planes, work.
Alas, we have come to the point of Trumpism in which someone claims with a straight face that since no two objects can inhabit the same physical space at the same time, immigrants really do suck.
The Wall could indeed reduce the number of Mexican & other south of the border immigrants who sneak into the USA. It wont do anything about the Canadians who sneak into the USA (but we dont care about them, do we, since they are white? :rolleyes: )
And it** can’t** do anything about the huge number of migrants who arrive legally but stay after their visa expire.
The wall would cost a huge amount but do little. It would be a environmental disaster.
These are valid points. And pint to things the wall is not expected to prevent. Other measures are need, as well. But they have nothing to do with the degree to which the wall wold be effective on our southern border.
Cost is subjective, especially when considering the cost of having the porous border we have now. You do not know that it would “do little”. And the environmental impacts can be mitigated.
I would try to come, too. But that does not mean that I’d feel it is incumbent upon the new country to welcome me, or even let me in. Unless it was a legitimate asylum claim. I’m sure there are some of them in the caravan, but probably a small percentage.
That’s fair, but all that really means is that the wall, and whatever supporting measures, have to be built with the reality that people will be motivated to breach it.