Depends on the test. I think it would be pretty close honestly. I don’t think such a thing is really a good idea though. I’m more in favor of actually slightly less pure democratic government though. Mob rule is dangerous.
That is just one policy, out of many, that is being addressed by the democrats that requires those voting for/against it to have an informed opinion. Not one that simply dismisses it as a Chinese/EU conspiracy theory.
Okay, by example, please outline some Clinton policies that demonstrably fail to address their concerns.
And I’m not asking the question because I think there aren’t legitimate policy differences that reasonable people can (and should) debate. I just want to hear what those are. Because the biggest objections I heard shouted the loudest and most often are not policy differences but things like, “Crooked!”, “Lock her up!”, “Benghazi!” and “Email Server!”.
I believe that Hillary and team failed to the extent that they didn’t do a very good job of getting their economic message out to the Rust Belt.
I would also argue that the Rust Belt failed in turn to hear her above the din of “Crooked Hillary!” and “Lock her up!”.
I agree, on both points.
Look-Hell is freezing over. 
Yeah, angry Trump supports are in their second day of rioting in many major cities.
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Hats off for a truly excellent post.
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Give me some time for a response, please.
The difference is that the same politicians that are calling these protesters “un-American” would have been actively supporting the protesting that would have gone on if Trump had lost.
Will you? Will you listen? (Royal you, of course.)
Stop talking and start listening. It should be clear that 50% of the country is comprised of people you really don’t know and don’t understand. Start listening to them. Stop dismissing them as stupid (They may be stupid, many people are, but they are also human and have wants and needs, just like the smart people do.) Stop telling them things and let them tell you things.
Do you know the best way to make friends? Ask a person about something they are interested in and listen to them talk.
Do you know the worst way to make friends? Start telling a person about yourself without being asked OR start telling someone about themselves.
These people are in reality. Stop insisting they are not. The fact that it is different from your reality doesn’t make it a fantasy.
Listen to them, understand what the reality of their life is, empathize with them.
Are you a religious person, k9?
You’re not addressing me but I have to admit that this is the one thing I’ve realized and learned from this go around about my side of the political spectrum (royal and otherwise).
FWIW, I’m an atheist.
I have a ton of understanding and empathy for you and your family, and for everyone who didn’t want to see Mr. Trump become our president; I am one of those people.
I’m sorry to hear about your work situation. It seems like it causes a lot of stress for you. Have you thought about seeking employment elsewhere?
My strategy isn’t something that will change things overnight. It will take time. I’m a great fan of the long [del]con[/del]game, tho, because I believe that properly played, the long game wins out over things that aren’t even on the radar now.
And I know that the past 16 years of calling people on the other side idiots didn’t work to bring about the kind of country I want to live in. I’ll change my perspective, listen to others to see what their views are, see what their needs are, see what their dreams are, then support people in the things I find desirable too.
But we have to move past “fuck it” first, and right now a huge percentage of the population is stuck at “fuck it”.
I don’t know any other way to move past that than to let people vent and to listen to what they say. Lots of times, when I’m pissed off, I just need to rant for about 2 minutes and then I can calm down and deal with the situation. I suspect many, if not most, people are this way and I am willing to listen, to try and understand their point of view and to empathize with them. I believe in the long run, this will open people’s eyes and minds and hearts to my point of view, which they will be better prepared to consider since they have a good opinion of me and since we’ve built some kind of bond other than “fuck you, idiot”.
I’m trying to empathize and understand the Trump voters. I can understand people terrified that their way of life is slipping away, that things are moving too fast, that they want to go back to the “good old days” when everybody could have a factory job for life with health insurance and a pension. I personally, think that some of the wishes are impossible. There just aren’t that many good paying manufacturing jobs in the world anymore.
However, I just can’t see how voting for Trump solves any of their problems. If they believe he will carry out his promises, then how will removing health care and blowing up the debt by wasting money on a wall and increasing defense spending while cutting taxes for corporations help them? As long as there are more applicants than jobs, there is no incentive for corporations to offer health insurance in order to attract workers. Giving corporations more money will not make them give their employees more money or better benefits. Those things existed because companies needed workers enough to offer them. So in this case, Trump voters are at best naive and ill-informed and at worst ignorant.
OTOH, if Trump supporters voted for him in spite of his promises, because he would never carry them out anyway (as I’ve heard a lot of them say) then what does this say about them. They are deliberating voting for what? Somebody who will say whatever is expedient to get elected? An unknown quantity just to blow up the status quo? How does that return things to the “good old days”? Do they really think that by destroying everything, the old America will suddenly magically regenerate in its place? This type of magical thinking is also irrational.
Again, I’m trying. I could understand voting for a conservative Republican such as Pence or Cruz. Even though I would disagree with almost every position they hold, I respect people who would vote for them. I just cannot get past the fact that they voted for Trump. And I surely can’t get past the people who proudly call themselves deplorable racist, homophobic and xenophobic. They want me to understand their position and then proudly proclaim that their position is to support treating minorities, women and immigrants like garbage? There is a point where you have to stop and say that this is as far as I can go in trying to empathize but to go any further would involve compromising my own moral fiber.
Yes, that is very close to the position I hold. Almost no rational person could have any set of values and desired outcomes that made a vote for Trump logical.
Yeah, I’m not referring to the voters. The republicans could carry 100% of the college-educated vote and that wouldn’t change the fact that their policy is constantly and consistently wrong, and that Trump’s policy in particular is absurdly stupid.
It’s not wrong, though. Have you met these people?!
That’s the thing though. They are. They were even before it became clear that they would be able to push that shit on the rest of us. Obviously this isn’t productive, but you can’t really argue that it isn’t true. Because it is. And it has to inform how we go forward. Facts… evidence… reasoned arguments… They didn’t work. We tried that. It failed. We need to either come up with a new way of presenting those methods, or we need to come up with a new method to convince people not to vote for the dangerous, incompetent demagogue.
Bricker.
Bricker.
It’s Donald Fucking Trump.
Stop it.
Stop pretending that the choice to vote for this guy is defensible on rational grounds.
Can we please dispel this myth, this absurd fucking myth that the people voting for Trump generally had good reasons? They didn’t.
Want a case study?
Many of them considered terrorism the most important issue. What has Trump said about terrorism? Other than his willingness to stoke islamophobia, he has offered absolutely no plan to deal with international terrorism. Ban muslims from entering the country? That plan makes sense if you’re a second-grader who has never encountered the concept of lying, or learned the first thing about the constitution, or taken even the slightest look at where the latest terrorist attacks have come from. Deal with ISIS by… showing you have no plan whatsoever and no understanding of military strategy, but are also willing to say that you know more than the generals. Awesome. If someone voted for Trump because they were afraid of Terrorism, they got conned. And it wasn’t even a good con. It was the kind of con that should have been blatantly obvious to everyone.
Or maybe the economy. This wasn’t such a huge point for Trump, but there were still a lot of people who considered the economy incredibly important and cast their vote for Trump. Meanwhile, every independent analysis shows that Trump’s economic plans would be an unmitigated disaster. Again, if you voted for Trump on his economic record, you got conned.
Or maybe trustworthiness is the reason you voted Trump. In which case I literally have no words for you and cannot help but shake my head in shame and despair, because you voted for the single most dishonest, manipulative, untrustworthy candidate in recent memory.
Just for example.
To the degree that those problems are worth fixing: yes. These people have been really fuckin’ loud about their problems this whole election. Clinton has proposed reasonable, well-thought-out solutions for many of those problems. The problems she couldn’t fix are the ones not worth fixing - problems like “There are too many brown people around me”.
Obviously, I’m oversimplifying, but the reality is not that far off. One thing that Clinton is really good at? Listening. She’s a policy wonk first and foremost, and her proposals were realistic and would have helped.
These people instead went for the snake oil, and we’re all going to suffer as a result.
And no, not everyone who disagrees with me is stupid. But most Trump supporters I’ve met, including my Grandmother, clearly are.
Then provide evidence for that theory.
Well fine. There’s one thing.
Well I happen to have Marshall McLuhan right here:
[ol’ Marshall]You might be forgetting that the message is controlled by whoever controls the medium. Look at your very next sentence:[/ol’ Marshall]
The way “the Left felt about rural voters” is NOT a message for which the Left in this country as it actually exists is responsible! The elite Washington press corps sure seems to have contempt for middle America, but the amorphous “Left” is at least ambiguous and far more complex. Many of us come from rural America, and many more of us from suburban America.
That Hillary called “half of Trump’s supporters” deplorable is undisputed. The fact that the media failed to put that statement -or any statement by any of the candidates- into any sort of context shouldn’t be disputed either. The controversy about it was great for the infotainers, but not a reflection of HRC’s view about ‘rural voters’ in general. And it was not a reflection of the Left’s view either. Yes, we lefties have open contempt for racism, xenophobia and other forms of unthinking bigotry. Seems rather insulting to ‘rural voters’ to interpret that as contempt for them.
Well I happen to have xenophon41 right here:
You’re completely wrong. That’s not what I’m asking you. I’m asking what policy discussions are important enough to Trump voters to be persuasive to them?
The evident disinterest of Trump voters in policy points at all (Trump rarely even offered any) leads me to conclude that the only kind of message delivery those voters (or that “basket” if you like) will accept is one which strokes the negative and hateful aspects of their precious feelings. So yeah, maybe the Democratic Party would make some headway with these people doing as the Donald did, but it wouldn’t be the Democratic Party any more. And it wouldn’t be a sign of respect to these people to validate those things. Just cynical manipulation.
So just to be clear… some people voted for Trump because others voted for Hillary when she acted inappropriately in support of Bill’s womanizing? And therefore, male and female alike, are all a bunch of girls? Or something. I’m not sure I understand your stance at all. Would you mind clarifying it for me, please?
But I’m not sure that’s representative either. According to reports coming out now, a large percentage of the “elite” simply didn’t vote at all and we have no way of knowing why. Was it because they were unmotivated due to disagreements or dislike, thought Hillary would win in a landslide or something else? But truly, if they had voted, I doubt seriously if it had remained a ‘tie.’
This has been my similar experience. Everyone I know that voted for Trump is in a world’s better place than I am; they all have their own homes (we lost ours when my husband became terminally ill and medical costs were more important), have stable jobs (while I’m holding down three) and insurance (I’ve had none since my husband died, as I can’t afford it).
So for the few discussions I’ve been brave enough to get into with them, they just lambast the Hispanic laborers for taking jobs (whilst employing them to do menial tasks around the house), the decline of morality via topics like SSM or the transgendered (all the while maybe knowing one person who would fit into the former category and none in the latter), and the high price of the ACA (which they don’t use).
Therefore, I’m not really sure what to do with their anger or how to help them. In my mother’s case, she hates Obama with a passion, yet couldn’t articulate one concrete reason why. She thinks Hillary is deplorable as well, but hasn’t actually heard of Benghazi, what specific lies she’s put forth (like taking sniper fire), which women she tore apart in an effort to back Bill or who Vince Foster is or what any of that represents. Yep, I’m at a loss.
Sadly, I think everyone has answered this in spades…
They. (Apparently) Do. NOT. Care.
And as an aside, if what’s been stated is true that many of Trump supporters do not believe he can fulfill (any of?) his promises, why would that back such blatant pandering? I would not vote for someone who blows smoke up my ass just because it makes me feel better, if there was no way they could follow through. It’s like one guy I dated who promised to buy us a half million dollar home if we married. He could barely keep a minimum wage job. :dubious:
Oh, and someone else brought up the co-opting of the “basket of deplorables” phrase. Considering that encompassed racists and xenophobes, et. al., wouldn’t that be akin to the Reagan administration using “Born in the USA” as its campaign song?
Thanks for the response; I can make my point regardless of who answered or how they answered.
Okay, you’re an atheist. I am too.
It’s tempting, but I do not walk around muttering under my breath how stupid and misguided religious people are, thinking all the time that they are living in a fantasy world.
My life would be very difficult, very bitter and would likely be comprised of me holding in a pent-up ball of rage and fury.
Instead, I’ve devoted considerable time to learning about various religions, understanding their tenets and their rituals, and speaking with members of various faiths about their beliefs and how they affect their lives. I still don’t think there’s a god or God or gods or Gods, but I don’t have naked, open contempt for people who, to me, clearly believe and live their lives according to something that is purely fictional.
I respect their religion, sometimes simply by not openly disrespecting it.
In return, for the most part, people respect my lack of belief.
I socialize with people who are Pagan, Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Buddhist, atheist, Hindu, with no strife.
Don’t dwell on the differences, too much. Find the commonalities, explore those first and at length. Establish a bond of some kind. Listen to what they have to say. Understand their point of view. Empathize with them.
Ever worked with children? I spent a couple of years in college volunteering at a day care center/pre-K for low income children. Children don’t have a political point of view, they don’t really have a religion, so there’s nothing there to disagree with. I enjoyed going to the day care center, and it helped me improve my skill at making friends because kids don’t know enough for me to lecture them on literature or symbolism in film or the finer points of Anarchist political factions. Kids just want someone to listen to them, to hear what they say and to understand them. So that’s what I would do: listen to them. How are you? What are you up to? Do you like doing that? What would you rather do? Are you having fun now?
Those kids liked me because I listened to them. That made them feel valued and important, which raised their self-esteem. They felt connected to another human being, one that was not their family (and thus was the Other). Eventually, those kids sought me out when I was there; I didn’t have to go looking for them. We had, in a limited sense defined by age and all, a friendship.
Stop making enemies. We all have enough enemies.
Not everyone will want to talk to you. Not everyone will want to be your friend. Be prepared for that; it happens. When it does, be gracious and move on; they may still listen in when you talk to the next person.
Question.
Why do you think I haven’t been listening?
I have been listening. I spent the better part of a year on a forum which, while reasonably bipartisan, held a ton of Trump supporters. I had a close friend who ran a skype group I am no longer a part of who supported Trump. My grandmother supports Trump.
I have gone out of my way to interact with people who think Trump was a good choice and try to suss out why. You know what I heard most commonly? Something along the lines of “Clinton is a felon”. Sometimes of the “she murdered 4 people in Benghazi” flavor, sometimes of the “Clinton body count” flavor, sometimes of the “she sold our secrets to China” variety. Occasionally I heard “Trump will make America great again”, followed by crickets when I asked for details. Often, it’s just outright racism. The honest, sad truth is that most of these people were conned.
Have you ever listened to talk radio? Ever spent time listening to Hannity or Limbaugh’s insane bloviations? 13 million fucking people listen to Rush Limbaugh each week. 13. Million. How do you reach someone who hears that disgusting moron talk about how awful it is that everything hinges on consent these days and thinks, “Yeah, that sounds about right”?
These are people whose view of reality has been utterly warped by a steady stream of right-wing propaganda and fearmongering. The fact that it’s “different from my reality” doesn’t make it a fantasy; the fact that it’s a reality in which Donald Trump is a solid pick for President of the United States of America makes it a fantasy. Please stop making excuses.
This is what I’m talking about; you have to move past that part of your attitude. People will pick up on the disdain and the air of superiority and decline to talk to you. If they won’t talk to you, they’ll never know that you’ll listen. And if you can’t listen, you’ll never understand them.
Right now, based on your post, you think you know and understand them, but the results of this election show otherwise.
Well, let’s start with the fact that in the post of mine you quoted, you obviously didn’t read or chose to ignore the words “(Royal you, of course.)”. You didn’t pay attention to what I wrote, you paid attention to what you wanted to pay attention to.
Based on that alone, I’ll decline to even read the rest of your post.
So: did your listening to me and understanding what I wrote get you what you wanted?
Did it fail to get you what you wanted because or me or because of you?
She failed to consider that many people don’t want the minimum wage raised, or to exist at all. Well, she probably considered it, but you get the idea. Lots of people have legitimate disagreements with Clinton’s platform. Disagreements with the platform can be had without a person being stupid, a racist, a misogynist, or otherwise deplorable.
I think this is a representative example of the sentiment you’re expressing. I also think it’s completely wrong. You’ve already acknowledged that different people could weigh different outcomes differently. How do you reconcile these two ideas?
I posted this back in July, but I think it presents a rational basis for a person to support Trump, if they so chose:
But beyond the idea of wanting nothing to get done, I also happen to agree with the purported judicial philosophy, as well as the possibly genuine position on firearms.
It’s a dilemma. Because in a democracy reason isn’t sufficient. Rhetoric is extraordinarily important. Yet, safeguards that protect against mob rule have been systematically dismantled over the decades to give more power to “the people.” 1/2 the people have an IQ of 100 or less. We don’t necessarily want direct democracy.
Yet, it’s politically desirable for both parties to have easily manipulated contingents. These people wanting a popular vote don’t know what they are asking for.