To the degree Trump has a plausible claim that’s believable on its own terms, it’s that the job of rooting out the deep state, despite significant progress, is not done yet. And every time Trump grabs more power or thrashes the existing hierarchy of an agency he’s Doing Good against the Evil Deep State.
President Erdogan in Turkey has far more autocratic power than Trump has and has wielded it for far longer than Trump. And is in fact a far more capable leader than Trump, albeit still a tyrannical one. Erdogan still claims not to have defeated his deep state. Neither has Sisi in Egypt to hear him tell it.
In other words, to assert that it’ll take more than 4 years to defeat an entrenched Deep State is not crazy talk in and of itself. Nor does the failure of Trump so far to completely root out the deep state necessarily imply that he won’t continue making good progress if given (at least) the next 4 years to try. Now President-for-Life Trump would really be effective at defeating the deep state. If he does win next week rest assured the deep state will be a large part of his stated reason for pushing for President for Life status.
The existence of a deep state in the USA, now that’s crazy talk. But I’ll accept that as within the OP’s stated bounds of the question.
Many threads have been started in the last four years (I started a couple myself) asking DJT supporters to step forward to comment/explain/defend this or that, one thing and another. They usually don’t.
Hey, as Perfect as Anointed By God President Trump The Wonderful and Modest may be, even He (Peace and Glory Be Unto Him!) didn’t have access to the True Knowledge of the Deep State when he was a mere mortal Super-Successful Businessman. It was only after Ascending to a Higher State that he finally acquired the Power To Determine Reality.
So it took a bit longer than he planned. No one knew completely reorganizing the structure of the world wold be so complicated!
(Completely rejecting OP’s request not to fight the hypothetical)
One might as well ask evangelical christians, “If God is all-powerful, why doesn’t he just kill Satan right now and be done with it?”. In fact, I expect that when Trump says, “deep state”, a good fraction of his acolytes think, “Satan and his minions” – it casts the whole political process as an epic battle between good and evil, and puts one’s immortal soul on the line if they should pick the wrong side.
The real answer is that the Deep State is made up by Trump specifically to serve as a reason why he needs more power, and an excuse for why why previous grants of such power haven’t made everyone’s lives better. Trump needs to cast himself as a strong and competent and smart and good man being thwarted by a powerful enemy, because the results of his administration prove what he actually is – a weak and incompetent and foolish and evil man.
I feel we should be at least seeing some progress after four years. Deep State should be showing signs of weakening by now.
The problem is Trump ran for office claiming that he could outthink, outdeal, and outmanuever any opposition that was thrown at him. That was the center of his campaign: he was somebody who could get things done. Nobody could stop him.
So for him to say that Deep State isn’t letting him do things is undermining his reputation.
I’m not a Trump supporter–quite the opposite, really–but if I were, I don’t think I’d spend this particular moment engaging such a facially bad-faith question. And judging by the cricket chirps in the background, his actual supporters here appear to have come to the same conclusion.
What’s bad faith about it? I feel I have been open about my position and I am willing to listen to any arguments people make. I have tried to stop people from jumping on what Trump has said.
Trump supporters are going to have problems changing minds if they are only willing to discuss political topics with other people who already agree with them before the discussion begins.
You’re apparently postulating someone who thought Trump would’ve done a better job of battling the eeeevil Deep State — such that Trump’s reputation must surely now be diminished. Which means it’s now a choice between Trump, who (a) is making progress while fighting the good fight but (b) isn’t doing as well as one might have hoped, and — Biden, a guy said Trump supporter thinks won’t fight against the Deep State, but will help it along?
Trump’s playbook is to just do everything he did to win last time. That means the incumbent president has to (ridiculously) run as an outsider. The Deep State has to exist to pull this off. His supporters are used to this kind of faith. They would no more ask why Trump hasn’t rooted out the Deep State than they would ask why God hasn’t killed the devil. If God killed the devil, why would we need God? It makes no logical sense but neither does faith (the opposite of reason).
I don’t want to mention names because I don’t want to give the impression I’m calling out anyone. But we have some people who have posted their support for Trump in other threads.
Okay, I guess I can see that. Trump can’t stop Deep State but he’s still the better choice because he won’t work with Deep State. It’s not putting Trump in the best light but it is a coherent argument if you accept the premise.
Consolidating power takes time. Even though Trump skirts the Administrative Procedures Act, he can’t at this point issue executive orders without going through processes which take time.
I’m not in favor of DJT, but, if I was, I’d think he’s making reasonable progress at achieving ambitious goals.
What’s bad faith about it? I feel I have been open about my position and I am willing to listen to any arguments people make. I have tried to stop people from jumping on what Trump has said.
Trump supporters are going to have problems changing minds if they are only willing to discuss political topics with other people who already agree with them before the discussion begins.
It’s bad faith because “Hey, I’m just asking questions here” is a discredited rhetorical tactic. It was trash when Glenn Beck used it and it’s trash when you’re using it now.
You already know why they’re voting for Trump. Trump supporters, unless they are freakishly rich and benefiting from his tax breaks and reckless deregulation, are single issue voters and their single issue is “pwning the libs.” They don’t mind taking an economic hit personally if it delivers a bigger one to the smug California and New York college grads who look down on them, call them “deplorable,” and equate the Confederate Battle Flag their ancestors fought under with Nazi memorabilia. It’s really not an honest question.
I can certainly believe @Little_Nemo is being honest here. I can also believe that most Trump supporters who could answer would feel as Horatio said: I’m being invited as the guest of honor to a barroom brawl involving a dozen-plus of Nemo’s close personal friends. They’re reaction: No thanks; I’ll pass.
As to:
IMO that applies to the many MAGAts out there.
But there’s another large contingent who have bought into the narrative that both parties are simply corrupt self-serving elites. To them, Trump isn’t an R; Trump is remaking the elitist R party in name into the populist T party in fact. He’s pranking / sabotaging the Establishment regardless of whether they rode in on an elephant or a donkey. And they love that pranking / sabotaging / remaking.
I hear a lot of this from my co-workers who are less than filthy rich but still make a top-few-percent living.
I have several family members that would fit that first line. They think politicians are all corrupt and dishonest. They don’t trust Barack Obama, Bill or Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Bernie Sanders, Andrew Cuomo, Chuck Schumer, or Nancy Pelosi. But there’s the thing; they don’t trust Donald Trump, Mike Pence, George W. Bush, Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham, Mitt Romney, or Ted Cruz either.
That’s the part I find most confusing about the people you’re describing (and I agree they exist). How can somebody believe every politician is corrupt and dishonest - and then decide Donald Trump is the sole exception? How do people come to believe that Trump is somehow the one politician who they can place their full trust in?
I always thought Dale Gribble was a fictional character.