Possibly. OTOH, I have no doubt that Zelenskyy knew exactly what was going to happen: that any deal that Trump would offer would be (a) deeply advantageous to the U.S. and Russia, and disadvantageous to Ukraine, (b) unlikely to be offered in honesty (i.e., Trump would renege on the deal). In addition, it was clear that it was being done as an opportunity for Trump to posture in front of the cameras.
Knowing all that, Zelenskyy very likely realizes that the only thing he can now count on for the U.S. is in being an ally (well, stooge, really) for Putin. He may have gone through with the meeting, in an effort to publicly show the world just how much of an asshole Trump was being, in hopes of getting more support from Europe / the rest of NATO.
Sigh. I am trying very hard not to get involved. One of the few relatives I like and stay in touch with posted a simple pro Ukraine meme. It was a blue and yellow heart and the words “We stand with Ukraine”. One of her other Facebook frriends commented (this is just a snippet)
In the event anybody still hoped siding with a fascist dictator invading a democratic nation over the democratically elected president of that nation would cause Trump supporters to ‘wake up’, it ain’t gonna happen…
My high school girlfriend and her family left Kharkiv in about 1983, managing to get out to Italy and then to Canada. She was culturally Jewish and appreciated being part of my larger Jewish family.
I talked to her about a year ago and she had gone back about 7 or 8 years ago with her husband to show him around. She has spoken to people she stills know back home and her old apartment was flattened by the Russians.
“Renowned Critical Minerals Expert Jack Lifton” - sounds too knowledgable and sensible. Kinda like that pseudo-scientist Carl Sagan, who supposedly taught stuff at Cornell University - if that even exists.
Admit it, Stranger. You are Jack Lifton!
JK. And wow. I have some tiny cubic rare-earth magnets that I didn’t have to go to war for. They are great at sticking to each other and holding things on the fridge.
This was clearly a pre planned ambush. That is why Vance and the cameras were there in the first place. “This is great television”. No. But we learned how much Trump and Russia have been through together, which I did not know. I am beginning to understand how Trump could lose money running a casino.
If the US were serious about long term peace, they would have acknowledged that Putin has broken ceasefires before and offered genuine security guarantees to Ukraine and Europe. Instead, they coordinated this disgraceful shakedown. Wanting hypothetical hundreds of billions of dollars of minerals in exchange for… starting some nebulous process. Plus the security of American companies being there, as they were in Crimea and Donbass.
Zelenskyy has thanked the US in English on over 33 occasions, including today. Vance was trying so hard to reach a degree of performative significance that I was surprised he did not claim Zelenskyy was acting so ungrateful on this… his daughter’s wedding day.
The reporting afterwards was sometimes unobjective. Zelenskyy did not actually yell back or insult despite being provoked. No one commented on how Musk dressed for a cabinet meeting. But Ukraine needs Starlink and Javelins. This contretemps is bad for everyone except the men behind the iron curtain, who you should pay no attention to.
I watched the interview. It was over 30 minutes long. For the first 10 minutes or so Bret pushed, pushed, pushed for Zelenskyy to apologize to Trump. Then he spent another 10 minutes implying that Zelenskyy wasn’t serious about peace. After that he moved on to whether Zelenskyy should resign and finished with asking him if the relationship could be salvaged after today. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an interview so biased. Zelenskyy was amazing and kept his cool. I really think Bret was hoping he would lose his temper at all the insults. It won’t matter at all to MAGA but Zelenskyy resoundingly proved who is the better President.
I think it was televised because they wanted Zelensky to praise Trump and kiss his ass, and if not, play the big tough guy bullies which is what transpired. Trump wanted either televised.
And sad to see that Bret is now just part of the MAGAverse. Fuck him.
I could not resist the urge to counter the Russian propaganda coming out of the Magat. I had a brief FB messenger chat with the relative who posted the pro Ukraine meme. She mentioned that if she were younger she would move out of the country before it was too late. She saw my response on her page and endorsed it with an emoji and a reply,
Actually, since that comment I’ve learned that this exchange happened during the questions period. Vance’s comment was a response to a reporter’s question, during a press conference about a slightly distinct topic (the mineral deal), so it makes a lot more sense how we got to this point.
The whole thing is a misunderstanding anyway. If you listen to the Orange Genius in that video, it’s not Ukraine’s rare-earth elements that he wants, it’s “raw earth”. So I presume what the Orange Genius is after is topsoil. Ukraine has vast amounts of rich agricultural farmlands so they have lots of topsoil, which I presume the Orange Genius needs for his golf courses. If Zelensky was smart he’d offer to send truckloads of “raw earth” wherever Trump wanted it, and even offer to throw in some sod.
And Trump et al are so fucking stupid, narrow-minded, and dense that it probably never occurred to them that televising that disgraceful episode would make them look appalling to the rest of the western world.
I just read a wonderful statement issued by Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro. I cannot find a link to the text online. Short version- Trump and Musk are siding with an invading fascist dictator against the democracy he’s invading. Trump has lied about Putin starting the war. We are going to lose allies like crazy over this.
Here is Governor Shapiro’s full statement. I’ve added paragraph breaks for readability:
Pennsylvania is the proud home to over 150,000 Ukrainian and Ukrainian American people. Some have planted roots here for generations – and tens of thousands are here to find safety after fleeing Vladimir Putin’s aggression. I know they, along with countless other Pennsylvanians, watched in shock as the President and Vice President berated President Zelenskyy and advanced Russia’s propaganda directly from the White House.
The Oval Office should be a place where we advance American values – not where we retreat from them. When the President and Vice President attacked President Zelenskyy today, they served to undermine the safety and security of America and our national security interests. I support a diplomatic end to this war. Achieving this requires an honest reckoning of who started the war and who the aggressor is, and to that question, there is only one answer: Russia. In a matter of just a few weeks, the Trump-Vance Administration has alienated many of our allies and is seemingly trying to take us from being the leader of the free world to a hemispheric power, signaling to our friends in Europe that they are on their own.
Friends and adversaries elsewhere are taking notice. That is weakness that does not serve the interests of freedom and liberty, and it will create a more dangerous world. Strong leaders stand with their allies and they stand on their principles – and I believe we must continue to advocate for the values of freedom and liberty, not cower to dangerous dictators like Vladimir Putin.
