Trying to help my son NOT hate school, school isnt helping.

You know how they say teachers have to spend sooo much time grading assignments? Well lately they have been assigning these computer based learning programs which the kids do online and all the teacher has to do is download the results.

Problem is, the programs suck. Oh, they are not bad in themselves (although they are very complicated) but the interface can be very frustrating. Basically every time a child misses a question it drops their score and they have to do say 10 more problems to get their score back up. For example, my son was working thru this one on fractions. He had gotten to the point where he was 2 problems away from finishing then bam, he made a typo (typo was not leaving a space between the whole number and fraction) and the program then required him to do 10 more makeup problems. Of course that makes him very angry and does not want to continue and I dont blame him.

These programs are pretty hard for me and its easy to make typo errors.

BUT, the teacher likes them because he doesnt have to grade anything.

Of course this is along with daily homework out of the book.

The trouble is that educational software is written not by teachers, but by programmers, often with too little input from teachers or educational psychologists. It then gets bought by school administrators (on the basis of the fact that the programmers and their bosses advertise it as being great, and the administrators do not know any better - well, either that, or due to bribes or other forms of corruption), and teachers find themselves ordered to use it. The use of bad software like this is rarely, if ever, the fault of individual classroom teachers. They have very little control over such things.

Those type questions were common in the old Novell CNE testing. If you missed one, it hammered you with all it had in that area until it decided you passed or failed. Everyone hated that format.

Don’t know how you’re going to make your kid like something that’s inherently frustrating. He’s required to have computer skills, typing skills, and be typo free to take a math test? Something doesn’t seem right there.

I vote with the kid, take the computer out to the desert, set it at the base of a sand dune, back up 20 paces and see how many times out of 100 he can hit it with his .22. Then, use that as the fraction lesson.

Write a letter to the teacher explaining how badly this program is affecting your son. Skip any general criticism of the program or the teacher, just explain that the net effect on your son’s learning is negative. If the teacher isn’t inspired by this to make changes, go a level higher. Explain to the principal how being punished for minor and irrelevant errors is not teaching kids that learning is good. And if that doesn’t do it, go to the local paper. And in the mean time, explain to your son that getting bad grades in a flawed system isn’t a judgement on him and that he might as well get used to dealing with flawed systems and defeat early. :wink:

Well, having to learn to adapt to a flawed system that was designed by a semi-competent people and having your results judged somewhat randomly is nothing at all like anything that happens in the real world of work; nope, nothing at all.

I would time the total time you kid spends on math homework for a week. Make sure that in that time, math homework id ALL he’s doing. Then take that number to the teacher, and ask what can be done to reduce it. There is a good chance the teacher is really, honestly clueless. They just don’t realize how it adds up, and how slowly kids work. I have been that teacher, and was really glad to get a polite heads up.

Assuming the number is ridiculous, if the teacher is not helpful, go to the principal. Alternatively, if this is middle school, if the teacher won’t work with you, just tell your kid you’ll tell him when homework is done (when you see he gets it) and aas long as he’s getting As on his tests, you don’t care what the report card says. Tell the teacher this is a plan.

High school is different, cuz grades matter. If the teacher won’t work with you there, come back and I will have other suggestions.

This is no reason to refrain from improving the situation…

A very slightly different take: start the conversation with the teacher by asking whether this program is a district mandate or something the teacher has decided on. Given the cost of such programs, my guess is that it’s going to be a district mandate.

If it is, complaining to the teacher about it is going to be almost completely useless. The only way you can make that useful is to commiserate with the teacher, because the teacher likely hates it too. Instead, ask who the decisionmakers are.

But those decisionmakers, the ones who purchased the program, are going to be bureaucrats, and there’s no guarantee they’ll be open to criticism. Indeed, criticism of the program will implicitly be criticism of them for buying the program, and it’s quite likely they’ll be defensive.

So get involved with your PTO and with your school board. Parent voices, when organized, can be very powerful. If you’re the only one who objects to the program, you might be SOL; but if it’s really that annoying, it’s likely that other parents have problems with it too. And if parents approach the school board en masse and ask for better education, that might be effective.

There’s an extremely powerful movement in education right now, the Datacrats, who think that any pedagogical approach that provides quantifiable data is superior to an approach that provides less data. It’s insidious and corrosive to good educational practice, and if anything drives me out of the field entirely, it’ll be this movement. The single voice that’ll be most effective in resisting datacrats is parents who vote.

The program is new, but the problem isn’t. I remember elementary school classrooms where there were rules about recopying work that had more than three errors (we had to do final assignments of things like book reports in pen-- I’m not talking about math homework in a workbook). Each attempt was more frustrating, more anger-inducing, and put us in a mood more conducive to sloppy errors. My parents were not happy about all the wasted paper, although their response was to get on my case about it.

My aunt finally told me to write assignments in pencil, and let her proofread them, and then I could write over the pencil in pen, and after the ink dried, gently erase the pen. It was time-consuming, but guaranteed no more than two goings-over.

The invention of word processing made me weep with joy.

I also remember being punished for math homework errors with more problems, and also being told it was my own fault, since I should be checking my work more carefully-- after all, I could correct it at home (math homework was done in pencil). I did used to get my parents of my aunt or uncle to check my math, but I had to get it all done with time for them to check it, and then time to redo it (get it rechecked, and so on). It was usually OK, but on nights when I had to do something and homework was rushed, I got punishment problems.

The teacher didn’t call them punishment problems. They were “reinforcement.” If we made a mistake, clearly we needed extra practice in that area, so we got it. We still called them “punishment problems” no matter what the teacher said.

Sounds like your problem wasn’t so much with your teacher, just that you had a shitty attitude towards learning. Not that I blame you, pretty much all children do.

I don’t really know what people expect from teachers. You have to learn fractions, and the only way to do it is to practice. If you get them wrong, practice some more. No technology or pedagogy or psychology will ever change this.

bld mine.

Probably not, but should it be allowed to frustrate the problem by scoring typos as incorrect answers too?

Well, it sounds like the software is kinda crappily designed. (That’s certainly nothing new in the world of software.) Part of learning in general is figuring out efficient work habits and communicating your ideas. Getting in the habit of checking for typos before hitting Enter is part of that.

I certainly understand the frustrations of the OP’s son; I don’t mean to sound unsympathetic.

When I was a kid I knew I was smart enough that I could just sorta coast along with B’s and C’s by putting in a bare minimum of effort. I carried that strategy right up into college where it proceeded to kick me right in the ass. I wasn’t really prepared to admit to myself that learning actually takes work – and there’s no way around tedious and boring practice – until much later in my 20s.

So, the machine is looking for an answer of 2 1/2 and won’t accept 21/2? Those answers are completely different.

That’s the problem, he forgot to hit the space bar and that made the answer wrong. I wonder how many times Newton did that?

One thing i like about teaching at a university is that, for all its other hassles, those of us in the classroom have pretty wide latitude in how we teach our classes, and there aren’t too many efforts to mandate particular practices, software, etc.

I’m supposed to use the university’s chosen Course Management System (in our case, Moodle) to post my syllabus, class assignments, etc., but apart from that, there’s no-one telling me what types of assignments to set, or pushing me to use particular software systems.

The only pressure we get to use certain programs or online software comes from the publishers. A huge part of the publishing industry now involves not just producing textbooks and monographs and readers, but flogging a whole bunch of ancillary stuff like online quizzes, exercises, assignments, maps, videos, pictures, etc., etc., all of which are allegedly designed to improve student learning while also making our jobs easier. Every few weeks i have a rep from one company or other wanting to show me their latest online offerings.

So far, i really haven’t gone down the online route much at all, and that’s not because i’m a luddite or opposed to the use of technology. And it’s also not because i’m lazy, because one of the biggest selling points pushed by all these publishers is that using their online exercises will dramatically reduce the amount of time faculty spend grading papers and other assignments.

For a while, the main types of online quizzes available were multiple choice tests, which can easily be graded by the computer. But some publishers are now pushing software that, they claim, will grade proper written work, pointing out errors of spelling, grammar, sentence construction, and even content.

By refusing to move to online work and multiple choice tests, i make more work for myself. I spent yesterday grading essays written by my students, and because i want to provide feedback both on their historical understanding and on their writing skills, each paper takes some time. But i firmly believe that history is about demonstrating skills like reading comprehension, analysis, synthesis, and the ability to construct an argument, and it’s my job to help my students with that stuff.

My students would probably also prefer that i move to the new technology, because most of them hate writing papers, and quite a few of them also complain when i correct basic errors of spelling, grammar, punctuation, and sentence construction. But if you’re a university junior and you can’t tell the difference, or are too rushed or lazy to care about the difference, between “their” and “there,” or if you can’t manage basic subject/verb agreement, or if you can’t make the antecedents of your pronouns clear for your reader, you need to be corrected, because this stuff affects your ability to make yourself understood.

One big selling point for the online stuff, according to the publisher reps, is that it is more “engaging” for the students. I’ve even had one or two of them imply that i’m somehow remiss in my duties as a teacher for sticking to old fashioned books and documents in the classroom. But, as a historian, i happen to believe that the stuff we study in my class is inherently interesting, and is made even more interesting if you are willing to read, engage with, and talk about the material. If someone wants to sit in the back corner of the room all semester and do nothing, then yes, they might have a boring semester. But, as our students never tire of pointing out, they are adults, and i’m not going to pander to their desire for videos or games just because they’d prefer those things to reading.

The community college algebra course I took online also expected perfect spacing and only the exact answer expected. Not only 21/2 vs 2 1/2 but it also expected 10 1/2 vs 21/2. Or sometimes 21/2 versus 10 1/2. I never knew which until it told me I was wrong.

That said, I never had a situation where I had to answer 10 correct answers to make up for a wrong one. The questions were limited in number; if I flunked an online quiz, I flunked, that’s all

You know, when I was considering going back to school to change career paths I knew I’d forgotten, like, everything in math that I didn’t use at the grocery store, so I went and started at 2+2 and telling time and shit with Khan Academy. And when I got to multiplying three digit numbers I kept making dumb errors. Seriously, stupid fucking errors. Just like I must have in the third grade or whatever. And that’s exactly what it did - “do more of this because clearly you need it!”

And I’m 34 and it SUCKED.

However, five hundred problems later I promise you I quit making dumb errors.

You know, the simple way to fix this is to give students 3 or so wrong answers before the question is officially marked incorrect. That’s what the software in my lower level calc course did. We got 5 tries to get it right. This was necessary because the syntax was especially picky for things like integrals, but could be just as easily used to alleviate stupid typos.

Yeah, but who really cares about those dumb errors? I’m a PhD student that uses multivariate calculus and probability at least twice a week and my dumb multiplication errors have approximately zero effect on anything relevant. (Though admittedly most of my work is symbolic rather than numeric)

There is an ocean of difference between research mathematics and the type of mathematical reasoning skills that are necessary to function at a basic level in human society.

Well, yes, but I haven’t found stupid multiplication or addition errors to have much bearing on everyday life, either.