You know, if FinnAgain wants to imply that I’m some sort of fucking ‘conspiracy theorist’, I think it’s pretty mild of me to inquire as to whether he is nuts. After all, aren’t conspiracy theorists by definition nuts? Shall I report the post in which he made the implication to you, or can you find it yourself, and tell him to knock it the heck off?
Look, can we all at least agree that Israel has no business trying to starve the Gazans into submission? That’s what this is all about, isn’t it?
No.
You are absolutely correct. Under the repeatedly cited GC, they have no right to do so. Can you support a contention that they are “trying to starve the Gazans into submission?” I have seen no-one give any credible evidence that that is their intent. Can you?
What else could be the intent of a blockade?
Keep out weapons. (Not sure why that needed to be pointed out.)
What this is ‘all about’ is pretty obviously an attempt to artificially create this situation and make the Israeli’s look bad (by those who seriously believe that the blockade is all about ‘trying to starve the Gazans into submission’…though I won’t point any fingers at anyone who DOES believe that kind of nonsense). As usual this thread breaks down along predictable lines of people who (for whatever reasons) simply want to believe that Israel is the root of all evil and that they provoked this (even in the face of watching the video of these events unfolding…which, to my mind, takes a militant level of self delusion), and those who are trying to point out that this whole situation was obviously planned from to achieve exactly this outcome.
So, the answer to your question is ‘no’…we can’t all agree on this ‘fact’.
-XT
And coriander.
You guys DO realize that if we REALLY wanted to starve the Gazanians, we would just cut their power and probably water, too, until they all keel over? Doesn’t that fact that we don’t do that prove anything?
That you don’t want to be that blatantly obvious; the same reason you would choose starvation as a weapon instead of a Dresden style firebombing. That’s often the point of severe sanctions; to kill without fingerprints. To be able to blame it on something else than your own actions.
And note that I don’t know enough about the situation in Gaza to say if Israel is doing so or not; I’m speaking only hypothetically, so as to answer your question.
In theory. Surprising people at night could lead to rash decisions and fog of war, which possibly happened here. I don’t imagine the violence would have escalated as it did if it happened during the day, which at this point is speculative but strikes me as plausible.
After my initial hot headedness, I’m thinking of this more as an unforced error on Israel’s part. Just under two dozen people are dead, and Israel has alienated its biggest Muslim ally, and got lots of bad press in the meantime. If instead it had just disabled the boat’s propeller with a frogman or used another less risky option, this could have turned out much better.
Yes, the focus is to keep out weapons, but there is a collective punishment aspect to it and the overall strategy is to eventually break Hamas. Maybe it’s from biased Pro-Palestinian wing of the UN but I keep reading that the aid making it into Gaza is much less than what is needed
It proves the current Israeli government is well above genocide and the kind of brutal repression Stalin was famous for. I don’t think anyone has ever doubted it.
I agree with you that the flotilla had the main purpose of breaking the siege, which makes the Israeli government look bad. The Israeli government could probably have stopped these ships in any number of ways that would have made them look less bad. Their stunning success in making themselves look completely incompetent is what the militantly deluded are reacting to. They boarded a ship without the proper training, the appropriate equipment, without an apparent plan if things went badly, and let the situation deteriorate to the point where a bunch of people with knives and clubs were able to be threatening enough that it required them to kill 10+ activists to get out alive. They could only look worse if once we actually hear the activists’ accounts that it becomes apparent the IDF commandos shot first.
Not to thread-jack, but if the primary purpose of the blockade was simply to keep out and inspect for weapons, including materials to make bombs or rockets, why was cement stopped from being allowed in until earlier this year? Why are cars, fridges, and computers not allowed in? While components of each (or in the cases of cars, the whole thing) could be used as a component of a weapon or bomb, at least fridges seem more likely to have a civilian-only use. And why is there only an unofficial list of goods that the Israelis are allowing in? Since everything is probably inspected before actually being physically being allowed transport, being arbitrary about what is allowed in seems to place the burden disproportionately on the civilian population of Gaza and not Hamas.
Most likely:
For the record I think that the breadth of the blockade is wrong and draconian to the point of making Hamas seem even more like noble resistance fighters and unduly increasing hardship for ordinary Gazans. Of course, the flipside of that is that allowing consignments in to a much greater degree would allow Hamas to claim that their strategy was working and by distributing goods themselves, Hamas would buy even more of the kind of goodwill that got them elected in the first place.
Israel should do their best to set up and support reliable NGO’s who could guarantee the passage of consignments to the civilian populace of Gaza and weaken Hamas’ stranglehold. That doesn’t mean, however, that the blockade is illegal. It certainly seems to be entirely in accord with the 4th GC and despite years of claims that a looming humanitarian crisis is imminent, there hasn’t been mass starvation. Available information, in fact, points to a birth rate in Gaza that is roughly three times that of the US.
This is one hell of a clause to disentangle, but given the electricity and infrastructure problems in Gaza it doesn’t seem likely that they are able to manufacture their own fridges, cars, or computers. So, Hamas could not gain any military or economic advantage from switching over resources from manufacturing something they can’t to manufacturing weapons or other things to improve the economy. In the case of fridges, is Israel really concerned with them being diverted from their destination and used exclusively by Hamas cronies or their paramilitary?
But the metric isn’t only production.
“that a definite advantage may accrue to the military efforts or economy of the enemy through the substitution of the above-mentioned consignments for goods which would otherwise be provided or produced by the enemy or through the release of such material,”
And I’m not as certain as you are that it’s completely beyond Hamas’ capability to produce durable goods. There are factories in Gaza, after all, including metal working factories and electrical appliance factories (or at least one electrical appliance factory that I’m aware of).
Again I don’t agree with the enforcement, but it seems that the logic holds up: if Hamas isn’t able to engage in construction or the distribution of major goods, then their economy suffers. If Hamas is forced to spendthe millions that they receive on smuggling in metal and building materials (for example), then they’re not spending it on the most up to date imported weaponry. If electric appliance factories are trying to build consumer goods, then they’re not building proximity fuses (or what have you).
It’s also not unheard of for comparatively ordinary materials to make their way into weapons, and this has undoubtedly made the Israelis a bit paranoid.
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](Satellite News and latest stories | The Jerusalem Post)
There is evidence, by the way, that the diversion of material from the sewer system may have led to the fatal 2007 sewer collapse in Gaza.
We’ve also seen other fairly mundane materials used for weapons as well:
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](Code Red in Sderot: Living in the most heavily bombed place in the world | Daily Mail Online)
Obviously the attempt is to deny metal and weaponizable chemicals to Hamas, despite the near-impossibility of total interdiction. The calculus seems to be that degrading Hamas’ capabilities as much as possible is valuable even if they can’t be eliminated totally.
Ah, I see you’re new to these threads? 
Yep, it proves Israel still want’s those $billions every year from the US Congress, and the $billions every year in military hardware from same, and the technology aid.
What was the point of the paint ball guns, what sort of non lethal load were they using.
Second, why are the turks getting all freaked out over this. As far as I remember , any civillian ship is required by law to heave to on the high seas by any warship for inspection. Blatantly torpedoing a foreign flagged ship, or firing anti ship missiles into the middle of a transited sea way, sorta like the Iran/Iraq war would be a hostile act, but boarding a ship on the high seas after its been ordered to heave to ??
Declan
Are you serious? It’s a bit like the distinction between Somali pirates and Customs. With deaths.
Because it was a turkish vessel? Because relationships between Turkey and Israel have deteriorated? Because the Turkish population is incredibly pissed of at what happened? Becausen Turkey is on the front line concerning this issue and can’t just ignore it (while another country not directly involved could have condemned the action and let it at that)? Because the Turkish government is really incensed?