We’ve issued a lot of mod notes about this already: this kind of crap doesn’t belong here. Drop the personal comments when you are posting in Great Debates. This is a formal warning.
Please cite where in the 4th GC it excludes certain occupying powers, and only applies to powers that self-identify as occupying. Or retract.
Also, your claim that Israel says it’s not an occupying power is fictional. The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that a state of belligerent occupation exists.
The double standard at work again is damn weird. If someone in the Israeli government says something, it’s true? Livni says it’s not an occupation, so it’s not. So by your own logic the 4th GC doesn’t even apply… which means all of its protections are null and void as well. Are you sure you really want to go down that path?
I just don’t know where to start.
- They don’t have enough food NOW.
- Five seconds on Google Maps will show you that there isn’t actually much land.
- Due to years of bombing, one wonders how arable this land is.
- How fertile is this land?
- Due to the blockade, will any sort of fertiliser be available for use?
- Due to the climate, what crops can be grown?
- Seeing as their is a water crisis in Gaza, both in terms of amount and how clean it is, how is this land going to be watered?
- Is it safe to farm on this land? Are there, for example, unexploded bombs?
- What sort of agricultural machinery is available? If there is none, where can they get some?
That’s just off the top of my head. It really isn’t so simple as saying “Not got enough food? Grow some over there!” Even then, if people are willing to take food to Gaza and subject it to whatever checks Israel wants then why the bloody hell can’t they?
And finally, the magic number 10 in the list:
- Israel doesn’t see themselves as an Occupying Power and thus doesn’t see themselves as having the right to restrict Gaza in the way that the Geneva Conventions say Occupying Powers are allowed to. Yet, for some reason, they still do.
My personal opinion is that they are an Occupying Power. As I have said several times now, I don’t remember claiming that the actions of a day or so ago were illegal.
For the umpteenth time, Israel refuses to accept that they are an Occupying Power but at the exact same time wants to be able to act like an Occupying Power when it suits them.
What’s so difficult to understand about that?
And if Israel is an Occupying Power:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Section_III:_Occupied_territories
Yet they specifically block certain foods and - last time I checked - the UN says only about 25% of the required food gets in.
I could look for more, but I seriously have to get some work done.
No. The link goes to the official Israeli Foreign ministry statement.
End of debate.
You know - until encountering you I was a strong supporter of Israel.
So well done. Have a big old golf clap to go with your Hamas pay check.
The GC has already been cited and the relevant provision highlighted for your attention. Likewise it’s been pointed out that if your argument is “this is bad” then I’ve already agreed with you and yet you keep repeating this.
False. Nearly 1/3 of all of Gaza is arable land.
They might want to beat their swords into plowshears. Coincidentally, that’s exactly what the 4th GC explicitly authorizes an occupying power to force its occupied persons to trade: the means to do violence with the means to run and economy and produce consignments.
Nobody said it was simple. The point is that the 4th Geneva Convention, which you have seen and responded to, specifically allows consignments to be denied if doing so will negatively impact an enemy’s economy and force them to divert resources in order to produce the consignments.
Already identified as false. Livni does not determine the Israeli law.
Even if it was true, the 4th GC deals with facts and not self-identification.
Your argument is nonsensical. If an Israeli politician tomorrow claimed that no international law applied to them at all, would you support that as you are supporting your claim that the 4th GC doesn’t if an Israeli politician implies that it’s not the relevant document?
The fact that nowhere in the 4th GC does it say “An occupying power shall be bound by this, but only if they self-identify as such.”
The fact that it’s not true, as Israel’s supreme court has ruled that a state of belligerent occupation exists.
You are actually arguing that international law doesn’t apply to Israel if they say, as a PR move, that they’re not occupying an area. Is that really a path you’re willing to go down… Israel can nullify any international laws that it’s a signatory to by saying that it doesn’t fit the category that the laws apply to, even if the facts show otherwise?
Yet again, please cite where the 4th Geneva Convention says that it only applies to occupying powers that self-identify as such, or retract.
And while you’re at it, please identify which body determines the law of the land in Israel, the MFA or the supreme court. If it’s not the MFA, retract that as well.
You already brought that up. You already had your gloss rebutted and the caveats pointed out.
Then you claimed that the caveats, which I quoted in the post you had responded to, were something you couldn’t find. After you responded to one of my posts full of direct quotes from the 4th GC.
No, I didn’t miss it, but if the goal of this flotilla was solely a humanitarian one, then despite having building materials removed, surely the other, permitted things like food and medicine would have still been allowed. You can’t eat building materials.
You can’t shelter under a bag of rice, either.
That’s what I meant by “cutting our losses”. A partial blockade is better than no blockade - at least my way, no real weapons will get through.
I’m not sure, but I hope it will. Israelis have had a problem connecting with Obama, but if he personally guarantees that no weapons will get through, there’s a good chance people will belive him. Israelis put huge store in personal accountability.
It’s true: as of today, there are in effect two Palestinian governments: the one in Ramallah and the one in Gaza. The former is more or less reasonable, and it’s crucial for Israel to put this whole issue behind it so that we can continue to advance the peace process with them. Escalating matters won’t be helpful for either side. It’s a zero-sum game: anything that strengthens Hamas weakens Fatah, and vice versa.
As of the government in Gaza… do you not agree with me that if the blockade is broken, Hamas will do whatever they can to procure weapons? And that those weapons will be used against Israel? Nothing good can come of that, least of all for the Palestinians.
Do you consider me one of those people?
The relevant Geneva Convention has been cited previously. A blockading power is allowed to prohibit other things besides strictly military items, if it means the belligerent power they are blockading then have to devote resources to providing that would otherwise go to military resources. Coriander and chocolate are luxury items. Totally unnecessary to life. If the civilian population “needs” such luxuries badly enough, then Hamas will have to find a way to provide them, at the expense of their purely military pursuits. Prohibiting staples like wheat or rice? Illegal. Prohibiting luxuries like coriander and chocolate? Legal. Also, others have mentioned building materials. Those are legitimate war materiel, as they are exactly what’s used to build fortifications. Again, perfectly legal and legitimate contraband.
I’m not retracting anything.
Question: Who decides when land is occupied?
Please tell me why Israel does not allow chocolate, coriander, jam and fruit juice in.
I genuinely couldn’t. I went up and down two pages of 50 posts trying to find them. There were all sorts of quotes from different places, none particularly identified as the magical list of caveats. So I asked where they were.
God, I’m evil.
Maybe I didn’t recognise them as I am lost as to how everything you quoted was relevant.
You really can’t put it any simpler than this:
There isn’t enough food.
Israel won’t let enough food in.
The viability of the land that is there is dubious.
The time it takes to grow does nothing to solve the food crisis now.
If I may ask a question: what are the permitted acts of blockade for a country that is not an occupying power but is at war with the place it’s blockading? That scenario seems to be more in line with how Israel regards things, and thus perhaps more a propos (at least if we accept that Hamas is the de facto government of the West Bank.)
I can’t see the US agreeing to enforce Israel’s blockade. That’s a lose-lose situation for us.
Allowing the situation to continue in the direction it’s going would be much, much worse. It’s the whole “Crisis = Danger + Opportunity” thing. I think it’s a risk worth taking.
And look at it this way: compared to us, you guys will look great!
OK, I will accept the idea that chocolate and coriander are luxuries and not necessities.
But, I have a roomy who would yawn at building materials, and fight tooth and nail for the chocolate - she sees it as a necessity. She’ll hurt somebody for chocolate 
Sorry, you gotta do your own dirty work.
What’s the US’s official position on the blockade? Do we even “support” it? I put that in quotes, because it can mean a range of things, from “don’t condemn, but grudgingly accept” to “you go girl!”
The same claim that’s been made for years and years now with no fulfillment, ever. Please provide a cite for exactly how many Gazans have died and/or are dying due to this crisis.