Turkish flagged vessel attack [What if?--becomes What now?]

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@SteveG1

A good swing to the head with a crowbar can kill someone. I would have thought people would know that. Crowbar, hammer, if you can crush a skull with it, or punch a hole in the skull, you can kill - rather easily too.

Yeah… but if I was expecting to fight commandoes, I would probably bring along something designed for killing rathern than something designed to pry open doors. Maybe this was suicide by IDF but it seems implausible. It doesn’t seem plausible that these guys were on this ship planning on getting killed by the IDF to put egg on Israel’s face.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Tristan

Assume a group of Mexican activists have been loudly trumpetting to the press their intention to illegally run the border of the US. They have other activists from other nations, as well as a handful of American’s who think the border policy is bad.

Upon finally reaching the border, the activists are stopped by Border Patrol agents. One group of activists, however, rather than surrender to be processed, attacks the agents. The agents first respond with pepper spray and tasers, but when several agents are down, and the activists have taken their weapons, the agents move up to lethal force, killing a number of activists.

Who is in the wrong, and why?

(I am aware that this issue is slightly different, but I’m curious to hear people’s responses.)

Exercising police powers within your borders is one thing. Exercising police powers in international waters to enforce a blockade that is causing a humanitarian crisis is another.

[FinnAgain]

@Honesty

Please

The 4th Geneva Convention has been cited, quoted, and the relevant sections have been discussed. Look over them to see what status consignments have if their absence would caused the occupied group to have to devote its resources to procuring them instead of other things.

And at the point where chocolate becomes anything other than a luxury good the argument becomes ridiculous. Chocolate is not a necessity because it has antioxidants any more than ribeyes are a necessity because they contain protein.

[tomndebb]

@Marley23

Again: enough with the flattening. Both of you were told to drop it a page ago. I’m not sure why you found it necessary to revive the hijack, FinnAgain, but I expect neither of you will post about it again.

In fairness, it was Damuri Ajashi who brought it up again.
**
Damuri Ajashi**, pay attrention to Mod instructions.
Finn, if you encounter this situation, simply link to the Mod instruction or Report it or ignore it. Don’t respond to closed issues.

[FinnAgain]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Exercising police powers within your borders is one thing. Exercising police powers in international waters to enforce a blockade that is causing a humanitarian crisis is another.

Again: military blockades are explicitly authorized in international waters.

[amanset]

@FinnAgain

What do you think that they were doing, exactly? Advancing on someone brandishing a knife is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation? Clubbing someone with a crowbar or steel pipe is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation?

A bunch of commandoes armed with guns boarding a boat in the middle of the night is a symbol of what, exactly?

[barbitu8]

Other than the weapons these “activists” used already mentioned, they took guns from some of the Israelis had and used them.

We have here a flotilla of pro-Palestinians attempting to bust the blockade Israel (and Egypt) had. The blockade was necessitated because Gaza is “governed” by Hamas, a terrorist group. The whole purpose of this so-called “humanitarian” action was either to break the blockade or hold Israel to world-wide scorn if she used all reasonable force to enforce the blockade. Israel was in a dilemma. She is a small country amidst Arab nations, all of which want her eliminated. She already provides humanitarian aid to Gaza and she offered to deliver any humanitarian aid the flotilla had if they would just leave it at the port designated.

Those that say Israel was “beyond the pale” and similar complaints just betray their antisemitism. 65 years after the Holocaust, and nothing has changed.

These pro-Palestinians now plan to attempt to break the blockade again. Israel has no choice if she wants to continue to exist.

[amanset]

@FinnAgain

And at the point where chocolate becomes anything other than a luxury good the argument becomes ridiculous.

Makes you wonder why the US Army has had it as a standard part of field rations since 1937.

Military chocolate (United States)

[Marley23]

@barbitu8

Those that say Israel was “beyond the pale” and similar complaints just betray their antisemitism. 65 years after the Holocaust, and nothing has changed.

You’re generally free to say what you like about non-posters (within the limits mentioned a few pages ago). But Frank specifically said this was “beyond the pale,” so this post could be interpreted as calling him (and any poster who has criticized Israel) as an antisemite. That’s not allowed, so don’t do it.

[barbitu8]

Here’s the message from Israel’s Foreign Ministry.

1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has
   been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the
   Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian
   targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the
   sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under
   international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at
   sea.

3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so
   long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and
   England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and
   set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the
   requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of
   the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted
   international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided
   appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers
   of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships
   participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime
   blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the
   blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate
   notification has been granted, as above.

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect,
   no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and
   enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates
   or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked
   under international law. The US Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval
   Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach
   a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of
   evading the blockade.

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention
   to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover,
   the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the
   blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade,
    Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade.
    It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit
    warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing
    Israel’s intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.

11. Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the
    flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the
    blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla,
    an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the
    blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.

12. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with
    violence by the protesters and acted in self defense to fend off such
    attacks.
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_floti
    lla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2010.htm

[amanset]

@barbitu8

Those that say Israel was “beyond the pale” and similar complaints just betray their antisemitism. 65 years after the Holocaust, and nothing has changed.

THANK FUCK. Somebody had to say it. I was worried that we were going to get through a discussion about Israel without someone accusing someone else of anti-semitism and referencing the holocaust.

We can now all sleep better at night.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@BrainGlutton

Look, can we all at least agree that Israel has no business trying to starve the Gazans into submission? That’s what this is all about, isn’t it?

No that is just a happy side effect.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@tomndebb

Keep out weapons. (Not sure why that needed to be pointed out.)

Then why is coriander and cement on the list of prohibited items?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Babale

You guys DO realize that if we REALLY wanted to starve the Gazanians, we would just cut their power and probably water, too, until they all keel over? Doesn’t that fact that we don’t do that prove anything?

Of course Israel can do that, then Egypt would not cooperate in the blockade. Israel can only go so far in the blockade before people start wondering if the blockade is worth all the suffering, before people start wondering if hamas doesn’t have a point.

[John_Mace]

@amanset

A bunch of commandoes armed with guns boarding a boat in the middle of the night is a symbol of what, exactly?

It’s a symbol of exactly what anyone should expect who tries to run a blockade. Especially when you had been explicitly warned and told to bring your cargo to a port where it could be inspected before sending it on to Gaza. That’s what it’s a symbol of.

[amanset]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Then why is coriander and cement on the list of prohibited items?

Apparently FinnAgain feels very strongly that they should grow their own. So much so that they should be starved until they do it.

[amanset]

@John_Mace

It’s a symbol of exactly what anyone should expect who tries to run a blockade. Especially when you had been explicitly warned and told to bring your cargo to a port where it could be inspected before sending it on to Gaza. That’s what it’s a symbol of.

Yes, it is always best to attack with commandoes in the dead of night rather than try and achieve a peaceful end.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Zephyurs

After my initial hot headedness

Wait a few weeks for the whole story to come out, you will either feel even more foolish or feel a bit vindicated for your initial reaction.

[quoteI’m thinking of this more as an unforced error on Israel’s part. Just under two dozen people are dead, and Israel has alienated its biggest Muslim ally, and got lots of bad press in the meantime. If instead it had just disabled the boat’s propeller with a frogman or used another less risky option, this could have turned out much better.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, its not like Israel had no other choice but to send in teh commandoes.

[John_Mace]

@Malthus

I must have missed the part in Gandhi’s biography where Gandhi finally decided non-violence was for suckers and beat some colonial Brit with a baseball bat.

That was in Ghandi II, First Blood.

[John_Mace]

@amanset

Yes, it is always best to attack with commandoes in the dead of night rather than try and achieve a peaceful end.

They tried to achieve a peaceful end, but were rebuffed.