So in the interests of self defense, shouldn’t Israel try to reduce the number of those angry young men? Assuming genocide is not a viable option to getting rid of the next generation of angry young men, how else can they reduce the number of angry young men in the next generation?
I think Elucidator’s point was that its not an existential crisis and they shouldn’t react as if it were.
Of course it should. When I said the blockade was inhumane, causing a lot of suffering, counterproductive, and that they should find better ways to achieve their security goals, did you think I was saying it was a good idea? That being said, firing rockets at people indiscriminately is not self defense. Particularly if it’s in response to something that happened decades ago. That’s just revenge.
That is because you have a narrow view of ownership. I also don’t see what ownership of land has to do with ethnic cleansing. If half the palestinians owned their land in fee simple and the other half were renting, would only half of the palestinians been victims of ethnic cleansing?
If this incident on the maru should teach Israel anything, it should teach them that the fact that it is not illegal does not mean it is advisable, tolerable or productive.
Your links didn’t show up.
I think we are all waiting for video of the Commandoes firing first or of them firing when their safety is not in jeopardy. In the absence of video it is a question of who you choose to believe. Things can get very confusing in a gunfight and I suspect that we will get all sorts of conflicting eye witness accounts.
But heaven help Likud if they those videos surface.
That is not my understanding of the word martyr.
So is the blockade working? How many rockets are they keeping out with the blockade?
Is there some video of the shooting? I think it would be very instructive to see the circumstances under which the shooting occurred.
Arsenal? Really? then between my kitchen and my garage, I have an arsenal.
Suicide by cop?
I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
There are two separate problems here:
- As alluded to in Barbitu8’s post, Hamas continuously fire Qassam rockets (really, glorified makeshift mortars) at Israeli civilian targets which are very near the Gaza Strip (mostly the town of Sderot.) Because of the makeshift, home-made quality of these rockets, it is very difficult to stop them from being produced – metal water pipe + gunpowder + some explosives = Qassam. These literally really are a weapon of “terror”-ism – while they occasionally do injure or rarely even kill, mostly they cause some property damage, and more importantly, terrorize the population they are aimed at. While still not acceptable to the Israeli public, these are not an existential thread to the country as a whole.
- Before and during the conflict in late 2008 - early 2009 (“Cast Lead,”) Hamas began using far more sophisticated, military grade rockets, such as the Grad– with longer range (reaching Ashkelon and even Beer-Sheva), higher accuracy, and a significantly larger payload.
It is the second class of weapons, and potentially even longer-range ones (which could reach as far as Tel Aviv) – which Hamas are (thankfully) not capable of home-producing – that we are trying to keep out of the hands of Hamas. A large arsenal of long-range, heavy, accurate missiles pouring in on Israel from Gaza would indeed be, if not an existential threat, a very very big problem for Israel, not to mention a potential mass loss of life just waiting to happen.
This is the purpose of the blockade – making sure that a regular arms-shipping route from Iran to Hamas cannot be established.
I’ll repeat the caveat that I agree that the list of items not allowed into Gaza does seem needlessly over-restrictive; that is not the same as saying that the blockade should be lifted entirely, because if that happens then before we know it Hamas will be armed to the teeth with military-grade artillery, and it will eventually be used against us (as evidenced in 2008.)
Which, incidentally, explains why when you advocated the removal of the blockade you were accused of, essentially, demanding that Israel abandon its right to self defense. I understand that you don’t see it that way, but things look different from here than from where you sit. I’m not saying you meant Israel has no right to self defense, but your proposed actions would effectively nullify our ability to defend ourselves, even if this is not what you have in mind with your good-intentioned wish for the end of the blockade.
Re: the question of martyrdom – I have no source, and this could be a rumor, but I have heard that at least two of the victims on the Marmara had prepared “good-bye” videos in the fashion of Suicide Bombers, i.e., they expected and hoped to die in action.
Again – I have no cite for this, and I do not know if this is actually true, but this rumor has been kicking around the Israeli press and word-of-mouth discussions. I’m at work and have already been spending all too much time writing here instead of working… :o – so I’d appreciate if someone could take a look at world media and see if any international mention of this has been made. I just don’t have the time (and the Google-fu is weak with this one.)
WTF dude!?!?! I hope the Palestinian remember that the only fly in their ointment right now is the videos of people beating the soldiers with sticks, if those videos didn’t exist, then they would have their nation.
It has been reported here in the US that people on the other boats were beaten and tasered but noone was killed. Some have suggested that this is what led some of the folks on the maru to fight back (still seems like a stupid thing to do. The point is to get video footage of getting beaten and tasered).
:eek:!!
“The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated”
(Sorry, couldn’t resist… :D)
It didn’t take long to google this.
http://www.petra.gov.jo/Artical.aspx?Lng=1&Section=8&Artical=198266
I think the activists missing thing is old news, they seem to have located everyone (a few were recovering in hospitals).
Nooner:
So they were going to strap on vests stuffed with weapons-grade coriander and launch themselves towards Israel in the wheel chairs?
Apologist is a derogatory term?
When it’s used to impugn someone’s intellectual honesty or motives, yes. The more formal definition of apologetics is not used very often around here.