Two Christianities - which is most correct?

Christianity involves which:
a. God loves the believer but demands him/her to change and to abide by the rules God has established (as expressed through scripture and/or the authorities He inspires);

b. God loves the believer and invites him/her to change, offering Jesus as an exemplar.

Comparing conservative Christianity with liberal Christianity, it seems there are, in fact, two different Christianities, each with its own concept of God, God’s love for humanity, God’s expectations of the believer, and the role of Christ’s grace and Spirit in the believer’s life.

I don’t even know if one is more right than the other. Why and how has this change come about? Which is right?

WRS/Thû

So, what’s really the difference, God’s tone of voice? As I understand it, believers from either angle also believe that if you don’t do what God prefers, you will find yourself in hell for eternity. If that’s the ultimatum, does it really matter how it is presented?

I guess I would say that the first option seems more fitting with the expected results.

-VM

I would say that those are two aspects of one Christianity - no matter what, God loves each of us. He has laid down rules for us to follow, but these rules are for our own good, even if we don’t always see them that way. In a sense He demands that we follow them, but at the same time, He will not force us to. Rather, He invites us to follow Him, and to make ourselves more and more Christlike. We are children of God, not slaves or equals. Taking either aspect to an extreme, by being obsessed with rules and regulations, or by thinking of God as merely “my buddy Jesus”, makes for a distorted and incomplete version of Christianity.

Actually, there are plenty of Christians who don’t believe anyone goes to hell for all eternity. They range from rather conservative denominations (e.g., Seventh Day Adventists) to more liberal churches, to theologically liberal priests and laiety of “mainline” denominations.

People always beat me to what I want to say. :mad: :smiley:

Good answers. Try a variation on them – we see the Heaven/Hell thing in very much a penal sense, and that is not the sense in which most Scripture speaks of it, though it is the sense in which most Scriptural exegetes expound on it.

In the Tanakh/O.T., God is generally seen as a civil law judge, rendering judgment according to the righteousness of His followers, not in a penal sense but according to what one’s behavior has earned, in terms of fines and rewards. Everyone goes to the same place – the Pit, divided into a place of rest for the righteous and a place of torments for the unrighteous.

In the Gospels, a metaphor of healing and humanistic behavior is focus – one cannot by him/herself be perfect as God would wish, so He gives the grace of His healing to enable one to love perfectly, give unsparingly, care unstintingly. Paul echoes this view, but with a subliminal judgmentalism that carries down from his Pharisee upbringing, and which I don’t believe he intended, but which strikes a chord in the “those sinners deserve Hell” attitudes of many Christians.

But the general idea is one of God giving grace to enable one to be most fully what God wants and expects one to be, not from a threatening, legislative sort of perspective, but in the sense in which a loving Father wants His children to become all that they can be, the best that they can be, helping and guiding as they grow up. In this context, Hell is simply the end result of insistence on bad choices, the natural result of deciding to refuse His help, just as a lifetime of smoking will likely lead to emphysema and lung cancer, not as a “punishment for the sin of smoking” but by inexorable physiological law. The choice to remain selfish and dissipated leads inevitably to a spiritual state of self-focus and degradation that makes one feel like one is in Hell, not as a sentence at the Last Judgment, but as the consequence of one’s choices.

You say…“I don’t even know if one is more right than the other. Why and how has this change come about? Which is right?”

Niether!! Spiritual biblical teachings are based soley on belief and faith. Unlike historical events in the bible, of which many can be substantiated by evidence and archeological discovery, spiritual dogma has to be taken for just what it is. Namely it is exactly what you want it to be. It has nothing to do with knowledge or knowing as you describe.

My first thought was Catholics and Protestants. Seems that major difference is becoming more and more irrelevant.

In those cases, what do they believe happens to the souls that don’t qualify for Heaven?

As an aside, I think it is wise if they are thinking this way. It was the notion of a loving God who might send me to Hell for eternity that started me down the road away from religion while I was still fairly young.

-VM

That’s not what the New Testament writers claimed, though. They repeatedly appealed to events such as the Resurrection and other examples of fulfilled prophecy. (Matthew’s gospel, in particular, repeatedly made such appeals.)

Now, one might argue about whether these events were indeed historical or not, but the fact remains – the NT writers appealed to supposedly historical events as the foundation for their spiritual teachings.

Polycarp, I must respectfully submit that I have no idea what you just said in your above post. It seems to me that you said there is a hell, but don’t blame God if you end up there. :confused:

Neither. This isn’t either/or. If you mean ‘closest in spirit to the message of Jesus’ i’d say Gnostic Christianity and their stance that the Jesus story is an allegorical tale leading those with ears to hear to the truth that Christ is within us.

That’s damned close to what I meant to say – pun intended! :slight_smile:

Let me explain it a little better. I had a friend once, in my college days, who was really something intellectually – the sort of guy who absolutely loved to explore all the implications of an idea. Bull sessions with him were like sitting in on one of Socrates’s dialogues. I enjoyed them so immensely it’s hard to explain – they were exhilirating; I felt like being possessed by Einstein’s ghost.

But he got into psychoactive drugs very heavily, exploring new avenues of experience. And more and more, the person whom he was, and whose mental agility was so precious to me, was replaced by a person who apparently needed the escape from reality that the drugs gave him. And inevitably he burned out. All the things that had meant so much to me about him were no longer there – he was a husk, an ash, of whom he had been, craving his drugs and without the ability to make the awesome mental leaps he had had.

I lost track of him after that, but I heard some years later that he was in a mental institution.

His choice, his life, to live as he chose. Had I been more mature, I would have known what to do, how to help him deal with the reality that he couldn’t face. But what he did foreclosed possibilities for him. He was no longer able to deal with the world on its terms, much less to enter into those exhilirating bull sessions.

His life is my metaphor for Hell as I understand it. What I see God offering is the chance to be yourself more fully and more joyfully – not an arbitrary rulemaker, but a Father guiding choices freely made by his sons (and daughters), to steer them away from destructive choices and into ones that will be more fulfilling in the long run.

Hell is there because He’s not prepared to compel us into living out the choices He would prefer for us to make. What we choose in life has consequences, and those consequences are necessary for choices to be meaningful. If, for example, drinking alcoholic beverages had no more effect than drinking equal amounts of water, then the choices of using alcohol for relaxation and stress relief, and of getting drunk, would no longer exist. That most of us would see the first as a positive and the second as a long-term negative, and might see a moral code as allowing the first and prohibiting the second, has virtually nothing to do with it. We are talking physiological effects and their psychological and social consequences here, not moral theology.

God wants us to turn and love Him, to choose Him and the relationship He wants to have with us. But it has to be a free choice – and that means that the alternative choice, with its consequences, must exist. So Hell is there – as the choice for a lifestyle that rejects Him – not because He is an ogre out to punish us, but because the natural consequence of the life chosen by a sapient mortal creature without His grace results in physical death, sooner or later, with any surviving consciousness caught in a sort of hysteresis of torment and regret. Physical consequence, not moral punishment – just as you are not punished for drinking a twelve-pack of Michelob with a hangover, but you get one as the physical consequence of doing so.

Poly, that’s a fascinating way of looking at it. It’s very akin to my take on the Rule of Three back when I was doing Wicca. While there are Wiccans who look at the Rule of Three as codifying the existence of a stern judicial Goddess who tosses lightning bolts of misfortune in retaliation for wrong acts, my view (and I think the view of most Wiccans) was that of the “rubber universe”: i.e., that what you do comes back to you because the moral properties of the universe are passively reflective (both moral and immoral acts “bounce off” the theoretical walls and return to their senders) rather than because there’s an active agent ready to right wrongs by returning wickedness to the wicked.

So Reagan went to hell?

Leaving aside my personal views, I would think that Reagan suffering a disabling illness in this life would not be equivalent to his expectations for the next life. However, as Poly noted, his friend’s course of self-destruction was an analogy:

and I am not sure that Poly would attempt to impose that analogy or metaphor on every person who has suffered.

Thanks, Tom. I don’t hold any negatives against the late President; I disagreed with many things he did, agreed with some things he did, and didn’t see him in the light in which I see the present President. However, I’d like to avoid any chance of hijack here – Alzheimer’s Syndrome is a terrible thing which concerns me greatly, having had several relatives who probably suffered from it (they died before it was recognized as the underlying cause of “senility”). And I’m not paralleling the choices of my friend with Mr. Reagan’s experiences.

Further, the great problem with the use of metaphor, simile, analogy, or parable in such debates is that they tempt the reader to go beyond the analogous circumstance. If I say, with Bobbie Burns, that “my luve is like a red, red rose,” I am certainly not ascribing thorns, stamens, pistils, or aphid parasites to her.

My suggestion is that one chooses Hell as the consequence of one’s life choices, an inevitable consequence of not accepting everlasting and fulfilling life, not as a penal consequence of violating commandments, but as the inevitable result of what the life choices lead to.

Sounds like a statement that Jerry Falwell could make.

Gulp!!! :eek:

But you’re right – we wouldn’t be talking about the same things, by and large, in referring to “life choices,” but yeah, Jerry’s not totally out to lunch.

I guess I’m totally out to lunch then.