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It’s been awhile since I’ve dealt with the whole SlimeyGuyPickupLine thing without just giving him a deadpan look and saying “Barking up the wrong gay tree here, buddy. Move it along”, but if memory serves what always tipped me off was whether he was primarily responding to me or throwing out stuff to be responded to. The former is hard to fake. Like if he actually listened to something I had to say and responded to it. Also, guys who let me know verbally and sincerely that they thought I was attractive but never made the first move made it much more likely that I would do it. Breathing room is a good thing.
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Unless they are developmentally disabled, they know. In this culture, it’s impossible not to. You get stared at all the time. At the same time, the first thing female peers will use to smack you down with (starting at, oh, age 8) is “Goddddd, you’re so CON-CEITED!!!” if you actually acknowledge anything whatsoever that is a strength whether it be intelligence, attractiveness, talent, etc. So girls hide it. And in some cases (like intelligence), I guess, forget it. But forgetting why everyone’s staring at you 24-7? I don’t think so.
(hijack aside: do guys’ friends ever accuse them of being “conceited” when he’s aware he’s good at something, etc?)
I doubt there’s a woman alive who’s had every man she met think she’s gorgeous. Over in Cafe Society I often see men mention that one famously attractive actress or another actually seems quite ugly to them. So even if a girl looks just like Nicole Kidman, there are people who think Nicole Kidman’s a dog.
There are also varying degrees of what one might call “stunningly beautiful”. I keep a photo of myself with two of my old friends at a college dance, and when people see it they often mention how attractive friend A is. She’s about 5’10", skinny, naturally blonde, and busty. Looks kind of like Gwyneth Paltrow, if Ms. Paltrow were a D-cup. (Although come to think of it I’ve heard people call Gwyneth ugly.) No one’s ever praised the beauty of friend B upon seeing the photo, although I personally think she has a prettier face than A. She is, however, much shorter and heavier.
I think both A and B have healthy self-images, but I don’t think either would agree if someone called them “stunningly beautiful”. I’ve never asked them about this, but A might well say that although she realizes she’s got a lot of the stereotypically “beautiful” traits there are plenty of women with prettier faces, and B might say that although she has a pretty face there are plenty of women with better figures and that no one would notice her next to a woman who looked like A.
There are also women who realize they’re very attractive, but not in the way they want to be. I had another college friend who dreamed of being a delicate and sophisticated looking “Audrey Hepburn type”, but fate and genetics had placed her closer to Jayne Mansfield. She knew men thought she was sexy, but she also feared that people looked and her and thought “BIMBO!” A woman who resembled Audrey Hepburn might conversely fear coming across as a porcelain doll or ice princess. And, as others have mentioned, there are many good-looking women who suffered through a awkward adolescence or were the victims of some kind of abuse at the hands of family or peers, and thus developed a negative self-image that their adult beauty hasn’t done much to counter.
You’re working from a couple of fallacious assumptions here, dude.
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What makes you think that these ladies don’t know it’s all a line of b.s.
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What makes you think that they want a guy who is different, profound, and interested in more than sex?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe these women know damn well what he is and what he’s after, and they LIKE it! I don’t mean that they all will go home with him. But I’ll tell you, having a guy approach you and let you know that he wants to take you home and fuck you senseless is quite a delightful feeling. Now if the guy is creepy and/or unattractive, then the attentions will be unwanted. But if a sexy and confident man approaches a woman and makes her feel desired, then she’ll eat up the attention.
Back in my single days, there were times when I’d run into some guy I knew from work or school when I was at a party or bar or something. I already knew the guy liked and respected me, but it was a trip to find out that he wanted me too.
Well, there’s your problem.
Women do like to be appreciated for their intelligence, creativity, and humor. But they also like sex. I’d hate to be sitting there all hot and bothered while my husband is trying to discuss Dostoyevsky with me. Yikes.
Oh, some of them know. I know that for a fact; I’ve seen him get played just as skillfully as he’s played others. I’ve also seen a couple scenarios where the woman called my dad out on his B.S. immediately, at which point he dropped it, and a mutual respect was developed. Those have ended up being the best relationships of his life. I really hope I’m not giving anyone the impression that I think women are too stupid to recognize sexual overtures for what they are. That’s pretty much the opposite of my point; I have more respect for you ladies than that, which is the whole reason I’m wondering why some of you will go for guys who use the same practices you give lip service to hating. If any of you do see through this sort of ploy, but decide for whatever reason that you find it compelling anyway, you’re not the ones I’m talking about…you’ve made a decision for yourself as to what you find compelling, and that’s absolutely cool. No, I’m talking about the ones who say they hate that sort of thing, and why can’t they just find an honest, straightforward guy who doesn’t just want them for sex…and then they wind up going out with my dad. Those are the ones that confuse me.
Most likely the fact that that’s all they ever freaking say. Or, more precisely, all they ever whine about to their girlfriends, ad nauseum, after getting “burned” in another “relationship” that was obviously headed nowhere from the get-go. See, my dad is different from your average ‘player’ in that he gives no false intentions. If he’s only interested in her for the sex, he’ll let her know (after he’s already got her attention, of course). So, not only is it obvious from the beginning what he’s doing; he actually spells it out for them. If a girl gets “burned” by someone like my dad, she has nobody to blame but herself. Again, I’m only talking about the sort of women I mentioned above, whose claims of what they are looking for are decidedly at odds with their actions. It’s pretty darn common, at least in my experience, but I’ll be damned if I’m prejudging all women because of it.
Yeah, that is my problem. I can almost see myself doing that…almost. I’m generally more observant than all that, and I’m not going to try to have a conversation with someone who’s obviously got, er, other things on her mind. It’s not that I don’t have a sex drive, it’s just that it really, honestly does not kick in until I’ve already gotten to know the girl. My mind is nearly incapable of judging physical attractiveness before mental, and even if I make a conscious effort to do so, I’ll just wind up changing my opinion once I get to know her (usually for the better; sometimes drastically so). Yeah, I know, it’s weird as hell. I wasn’t kidding.
Ah, hell, since I’ve got all you lovely femmes here and I’ve pretty much hijacked my own thread anyhow, I might as well continue along this topic. See, what gets to me is the preponderance of women, especially around my age (meaning 20-25; I hardly ever actively look in the other direction), who insist that they’re looking for a guy who is [insert any number of traits I pride myself on having]. Then they go out with some horny guy, end up getting their hearts broken, and then come straight back to their crying shoulder (a.k.a. me) and ask me what happened. And I just don’t have it in my heart to tell 'em, especially when I know perfectly well that they really already know. At the restaurant where I work, the ratio of male to female servers is about 1:5, and most of the girls are fairly young and attractive (yeah, it’s a good place to work). I have been officially dubbed “The Mentor” by the girls I work with, some of whom are more than five years older than me, because of my willingness and ability to offer guidance and understanding. But because I don’t make a habit of making sexual overtures, and because I am absolutely unwilling to allow myself to exploit the situation when the come to me for advice, I end up stuck in the middle as always. This is something I’ve learned to accept, since it was essentially the same scenario back in high school, but it still kinda sucks in the long run. My own fault? Probably so, but I don’t see any way around it that doesn’t involve doing something I consider assholish, and my primary guideline in life has always been “Don’t be a jackass”. With that, I guess I’ll go ahead and add a new question…
3) Am I totally screwed? 
“3) Am I totally screwed?”
No. What you are is totally NOT screwed, and not likely to get screwed any time soon.
I don’t mean to sound harsh, but you’re playing Big Brother, Mentor, etc. In my experience that’s not what girls want from a potential lover.
You don’t have to be a slimy smooth-talkin’ sum-bitch and you don’t have to be a total badass. Just be a little bit unpredictable and try to seem a little bit wilder than their pet hamster. Then you should do fine.
Women aren’t fooled by your father’s lines, they appreciate his attention. Interesting opening lines are a good way to start a conversation and begin an acquaintenceship. Use boring opening lines and you don’t get a second chance. It’s kinda’ like writing a story. If the reader isn’t captivated by the first few sentences, they aren’t likely to finish reading. If the girl doesn’t find your opening remarks interesting, she’s not likely to want to hear more.
Good luck!
Don’t worry, no offense taken. Your experience agrees with mine (despite the fact that the same girls who come to me in that capacity state clearly and repeatedly that those qualities are what they are looking for). Understand, though, that I’m not playing anything. That’s my whole point. I don’t seek out the mentor/Big Brother position any more than I attempt to follow in my father’s footsteps. I’m just straightforward. I don’t say much, but when I do, I try to mean what I say. I refuse to wear masks in public. I will ‘edit’ my thoughts only in that I’ll keep my mouth shut when I consider it wiser to do so. I will not lie or mislead people just to gain social acceptance. I’m trying real, real hard here not to become more cynical than I already am, but the gist of the advice in this thread seems to indicate that, if I want to attract women, I am supposed to:
Lie. Convince the girl I’m talking to that I think she is the most interesting and wonderful human being I’ve ever met, when I only met her five minutes ago. In other words, my dad’s tactic, as opposed my current method of simply being friendly and trying to get to know her. As the conversation continues, throw in compliments whose accuracy I have no way of knowing. In other words, my dad’s tactic, as opposed to my current method of waiting until we’ve talked for a bit, and giving compliments based upon things I actually notice.
Disrespect. Women are flattered when men find them attractive, and thus consider physical attraction and personal respect to be mutually exclusive. Do not attempt to discuss anything beyond idle chatter, as that sort of thing is supposed to wait until a personal relationship already exists (though how exactly one is supposed to form this relationship without ever discussing anything thought-provoking is admittedly undetermined). It’s not as if I walk up to girls and start spouting Aristotle at them. I generally start with polite chitchat, key in on a topic of apparent interest to the girl I’m talking to, and then attempt to explore that in a little more depth. Usually I invite the girl to explain the finer points of [topic X that she brought up] to me. That’s the point where I get the blank stare, so clearly talking about the things that interest her is considered highly uninteresting. Instead, I am to continue blathering about a multitude of meaningless drivel in order to keep the girl entertained. Sex should ensue, and after all, that’s my sole objective.
Sorry, but no dice. If that’s truly how most women expect me to behave, I’ll have to take a pass. That’s not me, that’s not what I’m about, and those aren’t actions that I’m willing to take. Is the above an exaggeration? I don’t know. You tell me. I came into this with the belief that it was, but the message seems to be that I’m wrong on all counts. When it comes to romantic interaction, fakery, it appears, is the name of the game. This isn’t the pit, so I’ll put my reaction this way: my take on that = Dennis Hopper’s take on Heineken in Blue Velvet.
Oh, and lest anyone think I’m being misogynistic, all of the above points apply to most men as well, in spades. As I said, I don’t automatically make a distinction between men and women when discussing anything other than physicality. It’s just that it’s not the men I’m interested in 
It should be added that, while my success with women is nowhere near as great as my dad’s, it’s not nonexistant, either. As I said in the footnote to the OP, I operate under the belief that, while openness, honesty and depth are not intially attractive to the majority, the ones that do show interest will be genuine. Thus far, this has worked out pretty well. I’ve had a couple of really good relationships that I wouldn’t have traded for all the sex in the world (which is not to say that those relationships were entirely non-physical, but it was never the driving point). I guess it depends on how you define ‘success’. My dad has his definition, it works for him, he’s happy, and I’m happy for him. I have my definition, and it doesn’t work often, but when it does, it works well. I just wonder why it doesn’t work more often than it does.
My original intention was to get an explanation for the seeming contradiction of the same women who claim to hate ‘players’ being attracted to their transparent B.S. routines. Some have responded that women can see through these routines, but still find the guy attractive anyway. I know that; my question was why. The answer I’ve gotten to that is that these men deserve to be given credit for trying, and for showing interest in the girl. I’d agree, but I’d ask that the same credit be given to me for showing interest by attempting to actually talk to you, maybe even with a couple of extra points for not trying to deceive you in the process.
If I seem like I’m being defensive here, I’m not. I kind of resent the perceived implication that I’m somehow in the wrong for not using the same tactics my dad uses, but I understand that maybe some felt I was complaining about my dad getting all the girls while I didn’t get any. If that had been my point, then I’d be pretty stupid for whining about it, but it wasn’t. I’m satisfied with my lot in life as far as that goes. I’m just curious as to why my dad is as successful as he is, when his modus operandi is, as we all seem to agree, nothing more than a big steaming crock of B.S.
Well, no. Convince her that she seems interesting and wonderful based on a five-minute sample – sure. Why not? If you don’t think so, whyinhell are you talking to her? Being as how you’re all moral and sincere and everything.
Uh, non sequitur. Just because a woman is flattered does not mean that you’re flattering her. Sincere physical attraction tempered with respect, is more welcome than flattery. And respect does not mean you can’t leer a little – it just can’t be all you do.
Oh, dear. One does not build a romantic relationship by “discussing anything thought-provoking” – that is how one gets a job at the New York Times Book Review. One builds a relationship by indirectly establishing certain facts: “Is he attractive? Am I attractive to him? Does he have a pleasing personality? Does he like mine?” The idea here is that while you’re (rightly) judging personality (both hers and yours) on one’s interest in interesting things, the conversation should NOT be about those things. The conversation is about HER. Interesting people do not discuss, converse, debate, or argue when wooing. They display their interests like plumage, and save the meaty discussions for later. If you don’t maintain this level of interest in a woman qua woman, you’re a poor prospect for mating. The few women you’ve met who find your approach appealing are probably pretty dull company to someone like your dad, who is carrying out the ritual and expects women to do the same. That blank stare you get means "Oh crap, I’m trapped with a conversationalist.
I don’t know what else to say; you remind me of thse ‘60s people who would deride etiquette and good manners because they were “fake,” or “insincere,” or “i should be respected for who I am.” Well, people know who you are – you’re the guy who doesn’t get it. Your dad gets it, and so does your friend. They know it ain’t lyin’ if nobody’d fooled, and they know it ain’t dancin’ if you don’t move with the beat.
By Nametag:
“Oh crap, I’m trapped with a conversationalist.” and:
“it ain’t dancin’ if you don’t move with the beat.”
Both of these wonderful lines in ONE post? If I could decide which I like better, I’d beg its use for a sig line.
Rock on, Dude or Dudette, as the case may be.
What your Dad is doing isn’t hokey BS. Remember, people act differently around different people. For instance do you act the same way around your grandma that you do your best friend? I don’t know you, but I’d be willing to bet you don’t.
Same goes with meeting new people (women especialy) you can’t just walk up to them like they’re your best friend already. Like a peacock spreads his feathers, you have to lay on the charm just a bit. It doesn’t necessarily mean your being fake.