Two questions for female Dopers (longish)

In My Humble Opinion
1

NOTE: The following questions are being posed in all seriousness. No irony or snark is intended therein.

1) Why is it that most women claim to hate the sort of hokey bullshit that guys usually spout, yet inevitably end up responding to it anyway? I’m not referring to the erstwhile techniques of the average Joe, which consist largely of free drinks and juvenile posturing, followed up quickly with an ill-conceived proposition. No, I refer here to the techniques of the more intelligent, more skilled, more refined, but ultimately just as full-of-shit ‘player’: the smooth-as-silk pickup line (not the kind you find in joke books, but the sort that actually sound like a human might say them), the “aren’t I so original” conversation on an ‘unconventional’ topic (designed to showcase the difference between himself and all the other guys who spout the same hokey bullshit), the indirect and subtle flattery, and the delicate touches and sensuous glances designed to indicate interest while remaining delightfully ambiguous. Why does that work? It’s bullshit. What’s more, you know it’s bullshit; most of you claim to be able to detect these types a mile away.

Time after time, though, I see it work, nearly without fail. My father has it down to an art; the ladies never see him coming, and they’re sucked in immediately by his smooth and ‘unconventional’ style. I can literally see the interest grow on their faces as they listen to his “aren’t I so original” conversation (his favorite is to say to them, “Everybody had a dream when they were young…tell me, what was yours?”)…they think, wow, this guy is so different, so intelligent, so profound; he must be interested in more than sex. Correct to some extent on the first three, ladies; no go on the last one. Listening to my father talk to woman never fails to elicit a :rolleyes: from me, yet women swoon at his every word. A guy I work with has this same routine, and his situation is the one that really confuses me. He’s not as smart as my dad is, so he’s not able to pull it off without triggering ladies’ B.S. detectors (though he isn’t aware of this), and every girl who talks to him winds up commenting on how ‘fake’ he is. Also, every girl who talks to him winds up asking him out. I think I speak for many when I ask, W…T…F?!

But I’m not here to Pit my dad and my acquaintance. I’m here to ask questions. So, my question to you, the women of Doperdom (who seem to be a damn sight smarter than the people I encounter on a day-to-day basis, and thus might have some insight into the issue): why is this fake, insulting, transparent hokey bullshit anymore effective on the average woman than a beer and a motel room key?*

2) Are the stunningly beautiful girls who reject any and all assertions of their attractiveness honest in their claims that they are not aware of it? Normally, I would guess ‘no’, but this seems entirely too common a phenomenon to be entirely untruthful…besides, I doubt if they all possess that much acting skill. I suppose I could almost understand if they truly were unaware, since I honestly have no idea whether or not women consider me attractive. But by the same token, I have to figure I would realize it if every woman I met thought I was gorgeous (sadly, this does not seem to be the case). Really, I could see this one going either way. If most beautiful women really don’t know they’re beautiful, it fits in with the whole “I’m too fat” image-consciousness thought pattern, and if they do, then their denial is just the female equivalent of the men’s aforementioned hokey bullshit. Again, I leave it to the Dopettes to weigh in on the issue.

Thanks in advance, ladies (or whatever generic plural feminine moniker you prefer)! Your opinions are appreciated. :slight_smile:

*For the record, my own pickup strategy consists of kicking off a conversation with whatever random pseudophilosophy my overly-introspective mind is kicking around at the moment. This has a success rate of about 0.2%, but I figure that at least the few who do show interest will be genuine.

2

I can’t really help you with question one, because I can honestly say I have never been picked up, conned or fallen for any type of line a guy has thrown at me. Guys I’ve finished up dating were either friends beforehand, or they were men who made quite an effort to pursue me over a period of time. I liked men, but found the whole game playing/pickup scene to be boring, and stayed rather detached from the whole process.

As for question two, It would depend on the girl. I believe truly beautiful women are totally aware of their beauty, and just play at being modest and unaware, but even the most beautiful girls have insecurities about flaws in their appearance. I imagine some women of average appearance could be completely clueless as to their own attractiveness. What is average to one person may be absolutely beautiful to another.

3

In my personal experience, I would rather not be noticed. Don’t get me wrong, it is flattering at first to have men approach you to tell you how stunning you are, it gets old and it also gets rather scary. I have been literally stalked through grocery stores, shopping malls and airports by men. One day, I was leaving a grocery store and the guy stocking the “Bluebell Ice Cream” was waiting for me OUTSIDE the store. He told me how beautiful I was and offered me a gallon of ice cream from his truck out back. At the time I had my 4 year old step son with me and it totally freaked me out. I declined the ice cream and when I got home I told my now ex-husband about it. He reported the incident to the store manager.

Make up, no make up, dressed up or down, it never matters, they still follow. Honestly, I am just me. I have grown up with this face, and body my whole life so I really don’t see how extraordinary I am. Yes, I do try to play down my looks because I really don’t like the attention at this point.

4

Q 1:

Women are wired on a fairly fundamental level to respond favorably to several different mate fitness indicators. One of the very strongest, assuming the man can present a reasonable appearance, is self confidence and the ability to focus on, and relate to them in a positive, non-desperate manner.

You may think you father’s methods are hokey, but they are very effective and are basically what the “How to pick up women” books are trying to teach less practiced and charismatic men to do.
Q 2:

Attractive people are extremely well aware they are attractive to others. Professions to the contrary are abject, self serving nonsense. Interestingly, what they are often not aware of, is the pass and cumualtive small leverages this gives them in everyday life compared to less attractive people. There have been a few studies on this phenomena, and the everyday social benefits attractive people get from being attractive are quite profound.

Here’s just one Attractive People Inspire Altruistic Behavior"

5

Heh, if there were definite answers to either of these questions, we could all get together and co-author a book and make gazillions of dollars and be on Oprah.

The only thing I would add on the first question is a reminder that not all women who “fall” for that sort of thing are actually falling. A lot of them are, but I think it’s safe to say that there are a number of women who don’t actually care what the guy is saying if they have already decided he is attractive to them. We play you too, sometimes.

As to the second question, there are probably a number of factors at play. I think people in general, not just women, tend to pay more attention to the physical traits about themselves that they are displeased with, so they contribute to a greater percentage of one’s own self-evaluation. Not being stunningly beautiful myself, I can’t speak to the reaction of supermodels, but even when receiving more moderate compliments I know I have sometimes failed to be completely gracious because they just don’t key into the things that I’m focused on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have nice hair, but my rear end IS THE SIZE OF THE LONE STAR STATE. I think there is also a tendency, and I think this one is more common to women than to men, although certainly not exclusive, to play down compliments about physical appearance for two reasons – that modesty is seen as a virture and that it is more seemly to brush over compliments, and also that comments about one’s looks sometimes read as inappropriate attention. That said, I have also met a few women whose protests along the lines of “oh no, I’m so ugly” are intended to encourage the person giving the compliment to keep repeating it. Yes, this is annoying.

6

I’m not stunningly beautiful, so I’ll pass on question two. I will agree that even the truly gorgeous have insecurities and like everyone else they’re likely to fish for ego-stroking by complaining about those perceived flaws. Also, never discount the late bloomer syndrome, the ugly duckling who’s self-esteem was formed prior to them being accepted as good looking, there’s quite a few of those who’re just utterly unaware.

I’d probably recognize someone like your Dad’s BS for what it is, and go out with him anyway. Sometimes one just appreciates the effort, y’know? There’s sort of a perverse honesty in a player being a player, he knows he’s shallow, I know he’s shallow, but it’s preferable to the terminally clueless types that don’t even bother trying.
Kind of a resigned place to be, and I certainly wasn’t there in my twenties, but now I’m pretty okay with it. He can be the typical guy, bs and all, I’ll be the typical girl and we’ll play our assigned roles and see how much fun we can have along the way.

7
  1. It’s hard to answer because I’ve never been picked up in a bar or by someone I’ve just met. In terms of who I date, the “techniques” they use don’t really make a difference. If I’m interested, they can use some of the lamest techniques and I’ll still be interested. If there’s no interest there to begin with, no lines or techniques can put it there. In general, I’m attracted to guys who are witty, intelligent, somewhat ambitious, and not physically repulsive to me. Those guys have a good chance of getting my interest.

I’ll be honest, I can’t tell if someone is a “player” or not until I get to know them really well. So I have fallen for a few. As a result, I do tend to be really reserved until I’ve gotten to know them well enough to trust them.

  1. Some girls know they’re attractive but learn at an early age that acknowleging it is wrong. Particularly in your interactions with other women, if you admit you look good you’ll immediately be written off as arrogant and someone will try to knock you down a few pegs. Other girls truly don’t know they’re attractive. We’re all really good at noticing the smallest micro-fault and really bad at seeing the big picture of our appearance. Other girls fish for complements. Still others are just sick of having their appearance commented on and want to move the conversation to something else.
8

Only once did a con man pick me up and it turned into a year of hell as he cheated on me the entire time. The rest of the guys I’ve been with were friends first. I don’t really go to places where lines are bantered about so… can’t really help you there. The cheating man and I met through work but he was smooth. My BS radar is working now.

I have image issues, yes I do. I cannot take a compliment without feeling it’s unwarranted unless it’s about my writing. My SO tries to tell me I’m sexy and beautiful but sadly it’s rare when I feel it (I’m getting better). I’ve had guys hit on me and I think they’re nuts. I’m a shy girl, a tall girl, and until my late twenties, was a skinny girl. The last time a guy hit on me was about a week ago and again, I was thinking he was nuts. It’s flattering as hell but I had been babysitting all day and hadn’t showered (ponytails are great). My friend made me out go out with her to the pizza place. It made me very awkward and when the guy came up to me, I just got all flustered. It’s not an act, I assure you.

But I do realize one thing; everyone is beautiful to someone.

9

I haven’t had many pickup lines tried on me (I don’t hang out in bars) but the one or two I’ve heard have really put my back up. It just doesn’t seem sincere, it feels like he’d be saying that same thing to whatever female he happened to see first. I find that whole “smooth player” thing icky.

As for the second question, well, I’ve been given plenty of compliments, but I still don’t like looking in mirrors because I’m not happy with how I look. I realize that these other people probably mean it when they compliment me, but I just don’t see it. My list of physical features that I’m happy with is much smaller than my list of physical features I’m unhappy with.

10

Can’t help you on #1. I have never, not once, been hit on by anyone other than whoever I was dating at the time (now I’m married). That whole strange-guy-walks-up-to-woman-and-starts-talking? Never happened to me.

Regarding your dad, I would say don’t knock it. It worked on your mom and got you conceived, didn’t it? :slight_smile:

As far as #2, I don’t care who they are, ALL truly beautiful women know they are gorgeous. It’s not their fault, when the world starts bending over backwards for you the second you hit puberty, you start to put 2 and 2 together and realize that you’re “special.” When you’ve got a drop dead gorgeous bombshell saying she “doesn’t see it,” she’s lying through her straight, perfectly white teeth.

11

There is, alas, no shortage of material on the interaction of men and women. Some of it’s funny, some shocking, and others just made me feel greasy; like they were the ‘Carsalesman’s guide to all the ladies!’ (Gold chains and all.)

I’ll submit one of the top two links I’ve found (cause the other is escaping me at the moment.) http://www.laddertheory.com

I’ve been out of the hunt for more than 8 years, and it’s from this distant perspective that I realize the people that are most successful are the ones that a) try it alot, b) are self-confident, and c)don’t get riled up at rejection.

Face it, if you’re succesful 10 times out of 100, that’s a lot better than 1 time in 10, even if the ratio is the same.

What bugs the heck outta me is: I NEVER got as much attention as I do now, pushing the stroller with my 18 month old twin boys. There’s that whole genetic ‘Hey, he can create good offspring’ combined with 'He’s entirely safe to flirt with - he’s married, and there’s NO WAY I’d get involved with the baggage a Divorced father of twin boys. ’ :smack: (and no, I’m not divorced…My marriage is fantastic, I’m just annoyed.)

12

Question 1: When a smooth-talking man delights me with original, funny, thought-provoking conversation, I call that “charisma”, if he’s half-way good at it. Since I’m attracted to charismatic men, I’d probably fall for it. It has to be more than just WHAT he’s saying, though, he has to have the attitude and the mannerisms of who he’s portraying himself as. Like confidence, strength, sex appeal. I’d say ALOT of women are attracted to men who have these qualities and portray them in a flirtatious way. Your dad actually sounds like my kind o’ man.

Question 2: I’m the kind of woman that can at times look totally beautiful, and other times maybe not “ugly”, but not-so-attractive. Sleep, makeup, hair, and clothes can make a huge difference. So I have times where I get hit on all day long and other times when men don’t even look at me, depending on how much effort I’ve made to look good. As a very confident woman who has come to accept herself as she is and see herself (and almost every woman in her own way) as beautiful, when a man makes a comment I don’t take it all that seriously but neither do I deny it or brush it away. It matters way more to me how I perceive myself than how others do.

13

Regarding question one: yeah, my dad’s good at what he does. Women everywhere seem to agree (even here, and y’all haven’t even met him :wink: ). I’m more curious about the guy I work with, whose utter lack of sincerity oozes from every word he speaks. Women ridicule him, label him an object of pity and scorn, and then, even as they’re doing so, they flock to him in droves. What the hell??? Seriously, what the hell??? If you know he’s full of shit, and you obviously do, then why on God’s green earth do you then proceed to fall for it anyway?

It’s not that I envy my dad and my friend (and he is my friend, sorta) their skill at their craft. I could probably do it if I wanted to – I’m not shy, and people tell me all the time that I sound exactly like my father – but honestly, I’d rather have a girl who was interested in my personality, rather than some line of hokey bullshit I spouted in hopes of getting them “hooked”. Then again, I’m one of those truly bizarre guys whose interest in women is primarily mental rather than physical (because that’s what I look for in people, a category in which I generally place women as well as men). But, to each his own; if my father is happy in his ways (and he is), and he isn’t hurting anybody else (and he isn’t, at least not in any way for which he could rationally be blamed), then I’m happy for him. I just don’t understand it, from either side of the equation.

As for question two, there seems to be a general concensus that, with rare exception, women who are truly beautiful are aware of it. That jives with my initial hypothesis, except for a factor I forgot to consider: some women who are beautiful may well just be sick of hearing about it. I can see where that would get annoying and/or downright scary at times. So good, then, now I have another reason not to do it (my original reason being that, even though I’d be giving the compliment sincerely, it would be indistinguishable from the sort of B.S. attractive women hear on a day to day basis).

Oh, and if anyone was going to tell me that my current “pickup method” (such as it is) sucks: trust me, I’m aware. I have long since decided that I’m screwed when it comes to finding a girlfriend, especially given my age group (I’m 20). Most of your average 20-year-old girls will give you a rather odd look when you attempt to start a conversation by, say, outlining the subtle difference between cynicism and pessimism, with a brief tangent about existentialist viewpoints. Hell, most of your average people of any age will give you the ol’ :confused: when you’re talking along those lines. Is there truly no audience for the ramblings of the philisophical introspective? (Besides the SDMB, I mean :wink: )

14

My guess is your dad makes women feel that they are the most interesting creatures in the room.

For your next question- appearance is very subjective. I don’t think I view myself as others do- it’s hard to be objective about your own appearance.

If your dad makes someone feel they are sincerely the most interesting and attractive creature around, he will probably be quite popular.

15

[QUOTE=It’s not that I envy my dad and my friend (and he is my friend, sorta) their skill at their craft. I could probably do it if I wanted to – I’m not shy, and people tell me all the time that I sound exactly like my father – but honestly, I’d rather have a girl who was interested in my personality, rather than some line of hokey bullshit I spouted in hopes of getting them “hooked”. Then again, I’m one of those truly bizarre guys whose interest in women is primarily mental rather than physical (because that’s what I look for in people, a category in which I generally place women as well as men). [/QUOTE]

You sound just like the male version of the women in “ladder theory” a few posts up. The similarity is astounding!

16

So your friend uses lame pickup lines, has no charisma, and still manages to attract all the babes? Why- I am wondering that now too. Does he play the bad boy? Is he very hot? Some women fall for bad boy or hot no matter what the personality is like.

And you- so you attempt deep meaningful serious conversations as opening lines? That’s probably not going to work for the most part, unless you’re at a MENSA convention. Most women out for a drink or whatever, are looking for lighthearted fun and don’t really want to debate the meaning of life at that moment. Maybe you SHOULD lighten up, at least if you want to have fun in these situations. If you want to broaden your horizons with the ladies, pay attention to your dad. A charismatic man makes all the men want to be him and all the women want to be with him. When a charismatic man shines his spotlight on you, he can make you feel like the most special woman in the world. This quality is irresistable to many women, myself included. As you’re only 20, you have tons of time to perfect your technique; you just have to find the approach that fits your personality and is attractive to the women that you’re attracted to.

17

Um, no. Nowhere do I mention anything about any sort of social ranking system, nor do I adhere to any particular theory or set of rules in my interactions with women. I’m not sure if this was intended as an insult or not, but it doesn’t make any sense, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

He isn’t ‘hot’ in the classical sense; most would describe him as cute. I think that’s really how his routine functions; through his constant yet inept use of flirtation and pickup lines, he appears harmless and amusing. Women then become convinced that he is ‘safe’ (this despite the fact that he makes sexual overtures every fifteen seconds), and become attracted to him for that quality. Paradoxical, to be sure, but effective nonetheless. And as has been said, hey, whatever works.

Yeah, I try to have meaningful conversations with everyone I meet, or at least those whom I take interest in. I’m an introvert, remember, and I fit the archetype in that I don’t really see the point of standing around quoting movie lines at one another, or discussing where I should have bought my shirt. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not a pretentious ass, I can go out and shoot the breeze with the crew from work, have a good time, and never try to talk about anything meaningful. But to me, REAL fun exists as a function of mental activity. Debate, philosophical banter, and overall stimulating conversation is the best time I can have. It doesn’t have to be anything meaningful, per se, all I ask is that it’s topical and somewhat in-depth. The tendency of people in casual conversation to merely scratch the surface of a multitude of topics without ever exploring anything confuses me, but I accept it nonetheless. It just ain’t my thang. Bottom line, if this sort of talk doesn’t interest you, you probably aren’t my type. Which is fine; there are more people of your type than there are of mine. As I said, I’m screwed. I’m sure you concur :slight_smile:

18

I do dig deep meaningful conversation. I just find it more appealing after I’ve gotten to know someone a little better and we’re more intimate, emotionally and mentally. As for your standard after-work happy hour or Saturday-night drunk-fest, meaningless inane small talk is about the most I can work up for a stranger.

19

  1. Don’t know. I’m not a woman that guys walk up and start talking to.

  2. I have never met any flat out “stunningly beautiful” girl who didn’t know she was beautiful. But many know that it isn’t acceptable to brag, and that they’re supposed to be modest. (I have strong memories from 2nd and 3rd grade where it was clear that it was not socially acceptable to brag about anything and that it was better to brush off compliments if you could. Or else.)

However, I know quite a few “some people would consider them really attractive” girls/women who have unfortunately spent too much time around and been too strongly influenced by the people who don’t consider them beautiful, so are unaware that there are people who do and surprised when they find it out.

20

How old are the women your father is hitting on, Roland? And what type does he go for?

I say this b/c I’ve worked in bars for eight years, and often, the men with the greatest success at pick-ups are the ones who find the most attractive woman in the room…and then hit on someone else. This works particularly well with women over thirty. I have noticed that even when the women know the guy is full of shit–they’re rolling their eyes at him–they’re still laughing, appreciating the attention and the flattery of having someone’s undivided interest.

Women check out the other girls at bars, too, if for no other reason than curiosity or boredom. And there’s always a handful of girls that are obviously The Hottest Chicks At The Bar (or at any function or gathering or work environment), and if a man is wise, he’ll avoid those girls and hit on the other ones. This increases his perceived “sincerity,” and women find it flattering that he chose them instead of the more obvious prey. As I said, this is even more effective if the woman the guy chooses is over thirty. This also increases his perceived intelligence, b/c a lot of guys do immediately zero in on the youngest, firmest, hottest girl in the bar, regardless of their own age or appearance. And don’t think women don’t notice this; a guy who doesn’t do this automatically wins points.

And do not underestimate the power of attention, however cliche or full of shit you may think (and they may know) it is. Some women just like the entertainment, and some women just think, “Hell, I’m bored enough to hear you out.” Most of them know that sex is the ultimate goal, but let’s be real; that’s the driving force of any initial interaction between the sexes. It’s a given.

There are also certain women who think they can “reform the player.” They think that they’ll be the ones to tame the tiger, if they try hard enough. They view it as a challenge; it feeds their ego to think that they’ll be the one he “keeps.” I find this one of the saddest phenomenons I know of, but I see it all the time. They’ll put up with all kinds of crap just on the hope that “he’ll eventually come to his senses and realize what a fabulous and unique girl I am.”

As for women not knowing they’re beautiful…there are degrees here. A woman who works hard to keep herself looking good, working out, buying nice clothes, getting her hair done, applying makeup, etc., may have a very dim view of her own “natural attractiveness.” When people compliment her, she thinks they are complimenting all her hard work, not the bare bones of what God gave her. So she appreciates it, but she may not really buy it. To her, looking good takes a lot of work, so it isn’t “real.” She has a very pragmatist view of her physical appeal.

There are other women, of course, for whom all that work is just icing on the cake; they know they look damn good and they expect you to know it, too. And they may get coy when you compliment them, but they are not surprised or even particularly flattered that you noticed. It’s “their due.”

And then there are the women in-between…and I would venture a guess that most women fall into this category, myself included. I have days where I think I’m looking really good, and days where I’m just over it. If you tell me I’m drop-dead-gorgeous or hideously ugly, I won’t believe either one; to me that says more about you than it does me. And I’ve been told I’m beautiful, and on some very good days, I smile and say, “Thanks!”

Other times I’m like, “What…? What do you want from me? Because you’re just trying to work me.” And even if I think you mean it, I don’t automatically see myself the way you see me.

Maybe that’s not right, but women learn from a very early age that any beauty they’ve been given is a mixed blessing. You can use it–and you probably will use it whether you realize it or not, re: Astro’s post–but you don’t always just assume that people, particularly men, are just being “honest” when they tell you how beautiful you are. So just because you’re told you are doesn’t make you believe it automatically.

And I sense I’m rambling here…just jotting thoughts down…but that’s my overall take on things. :smiley: