U.S Isolationism

[Blalron]

The Nick Berg incident really caused me to rethink the wisdom of our involvement with other countries.

Why do we need to spend billions upon billions of dollars in tax money to help out people in other countries, especially when a large percentage of people in that other countries resents us being there? Why bother going into strangers yards if the only thanks you’ll get is rabid dogs biting you and not flower petals being thrown on the ground in celebration of your arrival?

Aren’t terrorists attacking our country precisely because of our interventions in foreign countries? I know some say it’s because they “hate our freedom” or whatever, but isn’t it really because we are trying to shove our freedom down their unwilling throats? We don’t see foreign terrorists attacking free countries that aren’t involved in occupying the Middle East, now do we?

Why not pull our troops out of all foreign countries, and only spend as much on our military as is neccesary to protect the safety of United States territory from invasions?

If our withdraw isn’t enough to disengage the terrorists, we can build a big wall across our borders to keep them from coming in. And that will be the end of that.

From a purely selfish standpoint, it seems to me that we have more to gain by simply saying “screw you” to the rest of the world and doing our own thing. The money we were spending before on foreign aid could have tremendous impact here at home.

34 million people are below the poverty line. Last year alone we spent 87 billion dollars on Iraq. With that kind of money, we could have written every man, woman, and child below the poverty line in the U.S a check for $2,558!

That may not sound like a lot, but think of how much our domestic economy would be stimulated if all poor people were suddenly given such a check? I’m aware that people are instinctively against such a direct method of redistributing income, but what about other indirect spending that could be done to improve lives here at home? Like college vouchers and better health care, or a number of other things.

Are there any benefits we gain by not being politically isolated? And when I say benefits, feeling good for helping other countries doesn’t count. How do American Citizens personally benefit from interventionism?

[Martin_Hyde]

The global economic structure means all powerful nations must interfere in global affairs, or risk no longer being powerful.

We can’t allow the rest of the world to go crazy, it directly affects us economically.

The United States, as the most powerful nation atm, as a function of its power, needs to do more than other nations.

[SallyStar]

@Blalron

Why not pull our troops out of all foreign countries, and only spend as much on our military as is neccesary to protect the safety of United States territory from invasions?

If our withdraw isn’t enough to disengage the terrorists, we can build a big wall across our borders to keep them from coming in. And that will be the end of that.

I don’t like debates, but what you said really rings so true today. I think this should be seriously considered. I can’t stand reading about our soldiers and citizens dying everyday. We also shouldn’t have to carry water for people who have no respect for this country and take every opportunity to trash us.

My problem is how do we accomplish this, without any more American lives being lost?

[Martin_Hyde]

@SallyStar

I don’t like debates, but what you said really rings so true today. I think this should be seriously considered. I can’t stand reading about our soldiers and citizens dying everyday. We also shouldn’t have to carry water for people who have no respect for this country and take every opportunity to trash us.

My problem is how do we accomplish this, without any more American lives being lost?

There are a lot of prices and responsibilities to being a great power that can influence world affairs. You either pay them or you stop being a great power, simple as that.

[XT]

@Blalron

Why do we need to spend billions upon billions of dollars in tax money to help out people in other countries, especially when a large percentage of people in that other countries resents us being there? Why bother going into strangers yards if the only thanks you’ll get is rabid dogs biting you and not flower petals being thrown on the ground in celebration of your arrival?

We don’t do it for alturistic reasons I can assure you. We do it because its in our best interest to protect our interests abroad. Sometimes such protection is distastefu, and sometimes its down right stupid in retrospect, but the US IS a major power, and has to act like one.

@Blalron

Aren’t terrorists attacking our country precisely because of our interventions in foreign countries? I know some say it’s because they “hate our freedom” or whatever, but isn’t it really because we are trying to shove our freedom down their unwilling throats? We don’t see foreign terrorists attacking free countries that aren’t involved in occupying the Middle East, now do we?

Terrorists are attacking our country for myriad reasons, only some of which involve past US interventions. Its probably true that if the US returned to its pre-WWI isolationist stance we’d be attacked less, but there is the economic side you aren’t considering…unless you ALSO want the US to withdraw ALL its interests such as trade and such. The US is pretty pervasive throughout the world, and only part of that is military. There are also vast inroads of US culture (lol), and trade that effect people…and those also weigh in heavily for the terrorists.

And though GW was a bit of a moron for the ‘hate us because of our freedom’ sound bite, I think its safe to say that western political thought and freedom, of which the US is certainly a very visible example, IS corrosive to totalitarian and or theocratic regimes. So simply by being a free western democracy we are an in your face counter point to their ideologies. If the US totally withdrew I’m guessing that this would only shift the emphasis BACK to Europe, and they would the target of choice again.

@Blalron

Why not pull our troops out of all foreign countries, and only spend as much on our military as is neccesary to protect the safety of United States territory from invasions?

Because with the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan the only really large concentration of US troops overseas is in South Korea…and I doubt that would be such a good idea to pull em out with L’il Kim in charge to the North.

@Blalron

If our withdraw isn’t enough to disengage the terrorists, we can build a big wall across our borders to keep them from coming in. And that will be the end of that.

:rolleyes: I’m assuming you didn’t mean this either seriously or litterally.

@Blalron

From a purely selfish standpoint, it seems to me that we have more to gain by simply saying “screw you” to the rest of the world and doing our own thing. The money we were spending before on foreign aid could have tremendous impact here at home.

From a purely selfish standpoint the US HAS to remain engaged in the wider world. Granted, the present Administrations stance might not be optimal (to say the least), but the US can no longer be an isolationist neutral power floating along in the wake of the world. Our interests are too tied in to the rest of the world. While its true that if the US folds its hand and goes tits up, so goes the world, the converse is also true…the US is completely interdependant ON the rest of the world as well. That means we have a stake in things outside our borders.

@Blalron

34 million people are below the poverty line. Last year alone we spent 87 billion dollars on Iraq. With that kind of money, we could have written every man, woman, and child below the poverty line in the U.S a check for $2,558!

Well, I’m certainly not going to argue that the money spent on Iraq couldn’t have been spent better on other things, but I seriously doubt that if it had of been spent on something else (i.e. if there had of been no Iraq war) it would have been spent on the poor. We already have programs for that, and certainly the money used in Iraq wasn’t drawn from THEIR pot of funds in the budget (it was mostly ‘borrowed’ so we can pay it back later…or hopefully retire so our kids can :)).

@Blalron

That may not sound like a lot, but think of how much our domestic economy would be stimulated if all poor people were suddenly given such a check? I’m aware that people are instinctively against such a direct method of redistributing income, but what about other indirect spending that could be done to improve lives here at home? Like college vouchers and better health care, or a number of other things.

I seriously doubt that simply dividing up the $87 billion and writting checks to those below the poverty line would have ever happened, nor do I think it would have had much effect except in the short term. Most of the effect would have been to toss the fool who proposed and implimented such a thing out of office ASAP.

As to the other, we already DO some of those things. We have a pretty extensive system of social programs already you know. Ok, maybe they aren’t optimal (a debate in itself IMO) but they ARE there.

@Blalron

Are there any benefits we gain by not being politically isolated? And when I say benefits, feeling good for helping other countries doesn’t count. How do American Citizens personally benefit from interventionism?

Ya, there are lots of benifits we gain from not being what we were before WWI (hell, before WWII for that matter). You seem to be under the misperception that we do such things for feel good reasons. We do them because its in our best interests as a nation to protect our interests and our trade, and keep a lid (generally) on the world so it doesn’t blow appart. Same reason Europe is involved in the greater world too you know…because its in THEIR interests to do the same thing for the same reasons. Of course, sometimes nations cross the line, and the US is no exception. But thats no reason to toss the baby with the bath water and go back to the golden age of US isolationist/neutrality.

-XT

[marky33]

@Blalron

Are there any benefits we gain by not being politically isolated? And when I say benefits, feeling good for helping other countries doesn’t count. How do American Citizens personally benefit from interventionism?

Basically, the American economy is subsidised by the rest of the world. Your standard of living would drop significantly from a complete disengagement from the world.
The American military fights and dies primarily to protect American corporate interests - any positive it brings to another nation’s population is only when that interest coincides with that of big business.

[SallyStar]

@marky33

The American military fights and dies primarily to protect American corporate interests - any positive it brings to another nation’s population is only when that interest coincides with that of big business.

Amen, but what is the solution with the 2 big business political parties?

[Martin_Hyde]

Solution?

You guys speak about this as though it is “bad.” Every nation throughout history has pursued a foreign policy designed strictly to advance said nation’s power, prestige, standing, et cetra.

Every major European nation does it to this day, America does it, China does it, et al.

It is just because of a perverted and quite simply incorrect cultural stigma that the Western Democracies have to mask what is simply correctly functioning foreign policy with mindless platitudes about freedom and democracy.

[XT]

@marky33

Basically, the American economy is subsidised by the rest of the world. Your standard of living would drop significantly from a complete disengagement from the world.

:rolleyes: And they do this out of the goodness of their hearts…either that or we hold a gun to their heads and demand tribute, right? Get real. If the US disengaged from the rest of the world to the point WE went down, the world economy would go tits up. Sure, we depend on THEM…but THEY depend on US too.

@marky33

The American military fights and dies primarily to protect American corporate interests - any positive it brings to another nation’s population is only when that interest coincides with that of big business.

And this is different from every other country exactly how? Taking out the ‘big business’ bullshit and the ‘fights and dies primarily to protect American CORPORATE intersts’ of course and substituting trade and national interests, you’ve described every country in the world WITH a foriegn policy. Gods. :rolleyes:

@SallyStar

Amen, but what is the solution with the 2 big business political parties?

Why does this fact of life NEED a ‘solution’ pray tell? Unless you are talking about ALSO changing Europe, Asia, etc. Maybe the solution is to get rid of all trade and go back to living in caves? Or how about Communism, as that worked so well as an economic and political system…

@Martin Hyde

You guys speak about this as though it is “bad.” Every nation throughout history has pursued a foreign policy designed strictly to advance said nation’s power, prestige, standing, et cetra.

Exactly.

-XT

[Latro]

@xtisme

Because with the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan the only really large concentration of US troops overseas is in South Korea…and I doubt that would be such a good idea to pull em out with L’il Kim in charge to the North.

-XT

cough cough

Here’s some

U.S. European Command, in Stuttgart-Vaihingen, Germany, is responsible for 13 million square miles in 89 countries and territories. This area of responsibility begins at the North Cape of Norway and extends through the Baltic and Mediterranean Seas, through most of Europe and parts of the Middle East, to the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa. The Command’s mission is to support and advance US interests and policies throughout the region and to provide combat ready land, maritime, and air forces to Allied Command Europe or to US Unified Commands.

Seventh Army Training Command, the “Army’s training center is Europe,” is located in Grafenwoehr, Germany and is home to both the 7th Army Training Command and the 100th Area Support Group.

U.S. Army Tropic Test Center, Fort Clayton, Panama, became a testing center for Army systems in 1962. The Center’s mission is to plan and conduct tropic environmental development tests on a wide variety of military systems, materials, weapons, and equipment of all conceivable types, sizes, configurations, and uses. The center’s laboratory facilities provide detailed information on tropic-induced failures and other environmental effects.

U.S. Army Central Command-Saudi Arabia represents one of three forward deployed elements in the Persian Gulf region from Army Forces Central Command/3rd United States Army. Subordinate organizations to ARCENT-SA include deployed units rotating as task forces for various missions from home bases in the United States or Europe. The Command’s first stated mission is to provide antiballistic missile defense to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Emirate of Kuwait, and, on order, to other locations and allies in Southwest Asia using US Patriot Missile units.

Commander in Chief, U.S. Naval Forces Europe is responsible for providing overall command and operational control of all Naval forces assigned to the Commander in Chief, U.S. European Command. US Naval Forces Europe coordinates with other US and allied forces operating within its area of responsibility to accomplish operational missions as assigned by the US European Command.

Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet includes approximately 200 ships, 2,000 aircraft, and 250,000 Sailors and Marines and covers more than 50% of the earth’s surface, just over 100 million square miles. Each day, Pacific Fleet ships are at sea in the Pacific, Indian, and Arctic Oceans, from the west coast of the U.S. to the Arabian Gulf. The Fleet’s primary mission is to support the U.S. Pacific Command’s theater strategy, and to provide interoperable, trained and combat-ready naval forces to the Pacific Fleet and other U.S. unified commanders.

Navy Guam is responsible for an area in the Western Pacific almost as large as the United States. This Command provides support to the operating forces of the Seventh Fleet and to the shore activities and members of the numerous Navy commands on Guam. In addition, the Command coordinates actions by the Pacific Command service components located in Guam and throughout Micronesia in matters of concern with the host governments.

Naval Air Station Keflavik, Iceland is the host Command for the NATO Base in Iceland. The Command’s primary mission is to maintain and operate the Station’s facilities and to provide services and material to support aviation activities and units of the operating forces of the Navy, as designated by the Chief of Naval Operations.

Naval Support Activity, Naples, Italy provides the administrative and logistic support to over 100 tenant commands and activities throughout the Mediterranean region which includes personnel assigned to NATO and forces of the Sixth Fleet. The Commanding Officer, and the Executive Officer, manage and direct the overall operation from Capodichino and are assisted through offices located throughout Naples and the U.S. Navy Element, Headquarters AFSouth in Bagnoli, Italy.

U.S. Naval Station, Rota, Spain is located halfway between Gibraltar and the border of Portugal. American facilities at the Naval Station are wide-ranging and diversified in their primary role of supporting the US Sixth Fleet operating in the Mediterranean. While the Fleet tackles the increasingly complex task of promoting peace and stability in the Mediterranean area, the Naval Station and its tenant commands keep fuel, oil, ammunition and spare parts flowing to the operating forces.

U.S. Fleet Activities, Sasebo, Japan operates and maintains base facilities for the logistic support of the six ships forward deployed to Sasebo, Operating Forces of the US Pacific Fleet, and designated tenant activities. The Command also receives, renovates, maintains, stores, and issues ammunition, explosives, expendable ordnance items, weapons, and technical ordnance materials. The Command is also home to both Amphibious Group One and to Amphibious Squadron Eleven, the only permanently forward deployed amphibious squadron in the Navy.

U.S. Seventh Fleet is the largest of the forward-deployed US fleets, with 50-60 ships, 350 aircraft, and 60,000 Navy and Marine Corps personnel. Established in 1943, the Fleet operates in the Western Pacific, Indian Ocean, and Arabian Gulf and, with the support of its Task Force Commanders, directly supports the three principal elements of US national security strategy: deterrence, forward defense, and alliance solidarity. The fleet thereby promotes peace and stability in this increasingly important part of the world.

Naval Air Station Sigonella Italy, is known as the “Hub of the Med!” It is a high tempo, multi-faceted base with a critical mission. Due to its highly strategic location - at the very center of the Mediterranean - NAS Sigonella plays a vital role in supporting joint and combined naval operations in the Mediterranean theater.

Aviano Air Base, Italy, is home to approximately 3100 military and more than 800 civilian personnel who are permanently assigned to the base, which is the only U.S. Air Force base in Italy. The Base is home to the Sixteenth Air Force and to the 31st Fighter Wing.

Tuzla Air Base, Bosnia-Herzegovina, plays an integral role in the peacekeeping effort in the area. The Base has the busiest airfield in the Balkans and is the primary cargo and passenger hub for Multi-National Division North, one of three regions of the United Nations’ Stabilization Force.

Incirlik Air Base is located in southeastern Turkey. The Base is a Turkish Air Force base, but it has a large US presence. The host US Air Force unit is the 39th Wing, and its operational counterpart, the 39th Air and Space Expeditionary Wing, supports Operation Northern Watch, also headquartered here.

Kadena Air Base at Okinawa, Japan, the “Home of the Shoguns,” has as its mission the defense of US and Japanese mutual interests by providing a responsive staging and operational air base with integrated, deployable, forward based airpower.

Kunsan Air Base, Republic of Korea, is located on the western side of the Korean peninsula, 150 miles south of Seoul. Known as the “Home of the Wolf Pack,” the base houses the 8th Fighter Wing and has as its mission to deliver lethal airpower when and where directed by the Air Component Commander.

Misawa Air Base, Japan, is located in the southeastern portion of Aomori Prefecture on northern Honsyu Island. The Base is unique in that it is the only combined, joint service installation in the western Pacific. Units representing all four U.S. services are assigned here, with the 35th Fighter Wing serving as the host unit for the U.S. service members who call Misawa home.

Osan Air Base, Republic of Korea, is home to the 51st Figher Wing and to the 7th Air Force.

Ramstein Air Base, Germany, is home to the 86th Airlift Wing and has as its mission to provide rapid mobility and agile combat support for US forces and to enhance the quality of life for all Americans.

Taszar Air Base, Hungary, is home to the 406th Expeditionary Air Base Group. The primary mission is to maintain vital airfield operations that provide airlift support, as well as reconnaissance operations, for Operation JOINT FORGE.

Yokota Air Force Base, Japan, is located on the island of Honshu, Japan, on the Kanto Plain, 28 miles northwest of Tokyo at the foothills of the Okutama Mountains. The Base is home to the 374th Airlift Wing, which is the only airlift wing in the Far East. The wing provides airlift support to all Department of Defense agencies in the Pacific theater of operation. It also provides transport for people and equipment throughout the Kanto Plain and the Tokyo metropolitan area.

USMC Air Station Iwakuni, Japan, is located approximately 45 kilometers south of Hiroshima and is home to the fixed wing strike assets of the 1st Marine Aircraft Wing.

USMC Headquarters Battalion, Camp Fuji, Japan, is located at the base of Mount Fuji and is dedicated to coordinating the use of ranges and training facilities within the Fuji Maneuver Area, and to providing necessary support for using units.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

Ironically, that’s the main reason why I voted for Bush. He campaigned onan isolationist platform.

I’ve always advocated that we tell everyone to suck wind. It’s like getting kicked in the teeth by a beggar when you give him a fiver. That ain’t cool in my book.

[pervert]

Thanks very much, Latro for that list. Do you have troop numbers for any of those stations?

[sinical_brit]

Airman Doors quote " It’s like getting kicked in the teeth by a beggar when you give him a fiver."

Mmmmm Doors - its lust like that.

Problem is the beggar remembers your face from last time you came and helped him. He 's been homeless ever since !

sin

[sinical_brit]

sorry - "just like that " - see above

sin

[marky33]

@xtisme

:

And this is different from every other country exactly how? Taking out the ‘big business’ bullshit and the ‘fights and dies primarily to protect American CORPORATE intersts’ of course and substituting trade and national interests, you’ve described every country in the world WITH a foriegn policy. Gods. :rolleyes:

If you would care to read the OP before getting your knickers in a twist, Blalron seems to believe his government when it tells him/her it is in Iraq (or wherever else it meddles) for the good of that nation’s populace.
I think we all agree there is much, much more to it than that. I was saying just that, not passing judgment on relative merits.
Please pay attention!

[XT]

@marky33

If you would care to read the OP before getting your knickers in a twist, Blalron seems to believe his government when it tells him/her it is in Iraq (or wherever else it meddles) for the good of that nation’s populace.

Well, I think someone needs to read the OP more carefully…but it isn’t me. The OP is basically asking why the US doesn’t adopt a more isoloationist stance with reguards to the world. I addressed this in my first post. I addressed your ‘points’ in my second post, namely that if we withdraw all the hand waving and heated language from your post, its pretty much the same policy of every other major power throughout history.

Btw, where do you see the OP as being that s/he believes our invasion was good for the Iraq’s populace, or that this was the main thrust of the OP? I’m curious.

@marky33

I think we all agree there is much, much more to it than that. I was saying just that, not passing judgment on relative merits.

In broad terms I’m sure we can mostly all agree that the invasion of Iraq was a complex process. The devil is in the details though, and I doubt we’d agree much on those.

@marky33

Please pay attention!

Um…sure marky33. Whatever you say…

-XT

[XT]

BTW, missed the post by Latro. Appreciate the effort, and I certainly could be wrong in my generalization, however my understanding is that most of the commands you listed are down to well under division strength. I said that the last REALLY LARGE formations (that I’m aware of) are in South Korea and now Iraq. There are certainly other US forces scattered around here and there and I never meant imply otherwise, but my impression (which certainly could be wrong) is that most of them have been downsized drastically and the majority of the troops pulled back.

One nitpick too…you say this:

@Latro

Navy Guam is responsible for an area in the Western Pacific almost as large as the United States. This Command provides support to the operating forces of the Seventh Fleet and to the shore activities and members of the numerous Navy commands on Guam. In addition, the Command coordinates actions by the Pacific Command service components located in Guam and throughout Micronesia in matters of concern with the host governments.

I’ve actually been on Guam when I was in the Navy btw. Its a US territory, not foriegn soil.

-XT

[marky33]

@xtisme

Well, I think someone needs to read the OP more carefully…but it isn’t me.

xtisme forgive me. You are quite correct. My speed-reading skills are sadly deficient and it appears I need to heed my own advice.

[marky33]

This quote does suggest to me, however, that Blalron assumes Iraq is all about helping Iraqis.

@Blalron

Are there any benefits we gain by not being politically isolated? And when I say benefits, feeling good for helping other countries doesn’t count. How do American Citizens personally benefit from interventionism?

[XT]

@marky33

xtisme forgive me. You are quite correct. My speed-reading skills are sadly deficient and it appears I need to heed my own advice.

No worries.

@marky33

This quote does suggest to me, however, that Blalron assumes Iraq is all about helping Iraqis.

Well, Blalron would have to speak for himself of course, but thats not how I read the statement you quoted.

@Blalron

Are there any benefits we gain by not being politically isolated? And when I say benefits, feeling good for helping other countries doesn’t count. How do American Citizens personally benefit from interventionism?

When he says ‘feeling good for helping other countries doesn’t count’ he means the US feeling good…not the other countries ‘helped’. And he’s certainly not saying here that Iraq was ALL about helping Iraqi’s in any case, though he might (or might not) feel that way. He’s not talking about Iraq at all, except maybe perhiperally IMO. He’d have to address that himself.

Generally he’s simply asking if there are any benifits besides a national sense of ‘feeling good’ for (doing a good deed I suppose) by the US intervention in ANY foriegn conflict, not just Iraq. Its a valid question, but its been answered IMO…there ARE very good reasons why a major power needs to involve itself in the world at large and can’t simply isolate itself. Doesn’t make all such interventions good of course…but conversely, doesn’t make them all bad either.

-XT