Moderator’s Note: Azael, we don’t take kindly to posters “just trying to get a knee-jerk reaction one way or the other”. Don’t do that.
And lawrinson911, don’t take the bait and start speculating on the “mental capacity” of other posters, either. If someone posts something that you think is wrong, just point it out and say why.
I think the US should support Israeli in its fight against terrorism. At the same it should take a firm line against Israeli settlements and put pressure on it to obey UNSC resolutions about them. It should put pressure on both sides to reach a two-state solution based on somewhere very close to 1967 borders with financial compensation for refugees.
As for 3 billion dollars of aid every year I don’t see any good reason for it. There are many other democracies around the world which the US supports without giving them that much aid. Not to mention the fact that Israel is a pretty rich country.
Saen, thank you for responding in a more sensical manner than some f the people before you. However, I must inform you that I have completely developed this opinion on my own, without the help of parents, friends, or the racial group that you probaly think I belong to. The opinion that is mine isn’t exactly popular in the town which I am from or the University which I attend.
True, it is a complex situation, and having limited time and space to explain it, put it in the simplest terms.
The fact is that the United States, as well as the United Nations, tried and pretty much failed to make the state of Israel a peaceful nation. Instead of perpetuating a mistake, we might as well stop. The Muslim world has made itself clear in that Israel is ONE of the reasons that they despise us. I never stated that the support for Israel was the only reason for Muslim hatred.
To your next point about our dependence on oil: We get very little to no oil from Israel (as far as i know), so withdrawn support for Israel would only IMPROVE relations with the rest of the middle east, of whom have most of the oil…
I do not think that the withdrawn support for Israel would result in the slaughter of the Jewish population. Again, it is the state of Israel that Islam opposes. I do not think that the Palestinians would lethally oppose a state consisiting of both Jews and Palestinians. I do not understand why that wold not work…
It seems to me that the U.S. could have avoiding losing about 250,000 of its young men by not supporting Britain in WWII, either. And it could save a ton of money by not supporting South Korea or Taiwan.
What good is an ally who only ‘supports’ you when it costs nothing? It’s times like this when the U.S. should support Israel to the fullest extent. That doesn’t mean being an unquestioning supporter of every Israeli policy. But it does mean honoring your commitments when the going gets tough.
Remember the Gulf War? Remember 39 Scuds being dropped on Israel by Saddam? Remember how George Bush asked Israel to refrain from responding for the sake of the coalition, and how Israel agreed even though the people wanted blood and Israel had the military ability to extract it? That’s what ALLIES do - they take it on the chin sometimes, to help their partners out.
By inclination and ideology, Israel has been the best friend the U…S. has had in the middle east for 50 years. In return, the U.S. has helped Israel survive being surrounded by huge countries full of people that want them destroyed. The two countries make perfect, natural allies for each other.
BTW, don’t take my comment about Britain literally - I’m well aware of the details surrounding the U.S.'s involvement in WWII. I was just making a point. The U.S. could have abandoned Britain and focused on the Japanese. Or it could have stopped shipping arms during lend-lease when U.S. ships started being sunk by the Nazis.
If you decide an alliance is no longer in your best interests, the time to end it is NOT in the middle of a conflict.
And I don’t understand why a state consisting of both Tutsis and Hutus would not work. Or Serbs and Albanians. Or Christian Lebanese and Muslim Lebanese. Etc. Etc. Etc.
The true sorrow of this situation is that both parties are victims, both parties have perfectly understandable motives to demand revenge. Somehow, these stubborn belligerants must be made to see the futility of vengeance, and, more importantly, see some concrete fact to support the smidgeon of hope, the spark of human light without which there can be nothing.
We should adapt our policy accordingly. We should affirm our committment to the peaceful existence of Israel, we have been allied far too long for any less.
On the other hand, we should make it clear we will not support any more than that. Israels contined aggression by settlement is entirely contradictory to any policy that pretends to be concerned about peace and justice. A policy of punishing families for the actions of one of its members is abhorrent and we should not pretend to tolerate such behavior from an ally.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, elucidator.
I would submit that it is not Israel per se that is a cause of animosity, rather Israeli policies. See for example:
“The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict,” Published by
Jews for Justice in the Middle East at www.cactus48.com/truth.html; Gush Shalom’s piece “Violations of the Oslo Accord” at www.gush-shalom.org/archives/oslo.html; and Norman G. Finkelstein’s article “Palestine: The Truth About 1948,” at www.nimn.org/history/finkelstein.html. These pieces are by Jews (Gush Shalom is an Israeli organization), and so resist the tired ad hominem attacks that the speaker is a nazi or anti-Jew. (Arabs are Semitic, by the way.)
An interesting piece on Arafat’s so-called rejection of peace is Dr. Ron Pundak’s “From Oslo to Taba: What Went Wrong?” Pundak is an Israeli political scientist and co-author of the Oslo Peace Accord (if I recall correctly). It is available at www.gush-shalom.org/archives/pundak.doc.
Another interesting article is from Harper’s called “A Gaza Diary,” by Chris Hedges, who was a Middle East bureau chief for the New York Times. In it he details how Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinian children for sport. It is available at www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1. You can also read part of an interview on NPR’s Fresh Air at 64.226.129.19/pmw/manager/features/display_message.asp?mid=487.
So to address the original question, no we shouldn’t support Israel as long as it practices questionable policy. I am comfortable asserting that its policy is questionable at best. See for example Desmond Tutu’s remarks titled “Apartheid in the Holy Land” at www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,706911,00.html , or Ghandi’s remarks in the Jews for Justice piece referenced above.
I think the poor state of discourse on this subject, generally that is, not here among superior individuals, is illustrated by the fact that even in the presence of above average minds I still feel obligated to establish my non-anti-Jewish cred by noting that any Jew should be allowed to live anywhere she wants to live and own property and be free to work and engage in the polity, whether it be Israel/Palestine or Sri Lanka or Hell, Michigan. But I also feel the same is true for Palestinians, and Israel is set up to prevent that from happening. We should protect Jews in the Middle East with nuclear might if need be, but we should protect the Palestinians with the same force as well. It doesn’t need to be the way it is.
p.s. Why is there a Hisidic smiley-face but no Pope-hat smiley? If I was Catholic, I’d be pissed.
You can tell I’m new. The above links don’t work because the ending punctuation is included in the address. Next time I’ll put a space in before following any addresses with periods, commas, or semi-colons. I guess you have to copy and paste to visit those documents. Sorry about that! :rolleyes:
I don’t know about the other articles, but Hedges’ account has been widely discredited.
Support for our only democratic ally in the middle east, who are facing threats both near and far from constitutionally racist/bigoted countries?
Countries that a few short years ago collaborated and decided to destroy Israel and drive them into the sea? Countries with no semblance of democracy, based upon ancient bigoted religious doctrines, and bent on genocide?
How dare we? :rolleyes:
So what? I’m not afraid of bigots with no money, no education, pathetic armies, skewed knowledge of world events, and simple blind hatred. 9/11 was a unique event, and it will never happen again.
The U.S. is a scapegoat, because we happen to be the richest, most powerful, and the most involved in world politics. Anything wrong with these dumbfucks’ lives must be because of our own imperialism, huh?
The current threat is MUCH LESS than it was during the cold war, and I applaud the Bush administration for an excellent pep rally in building a world coalition to fight those who would undermine the current trend toward world peace.
Don’t laugh. Who were our enemies 15 years ago? Russia and China? They are now our most powerful allies in the war against terrorism.
Our biggest threats now are not huge countries with massive economic and military power. They are small non-democratic countries like Iraq and North Korea, and vagabond terrorist groups.
Having won the cold war, and created/sponsored democracy the world over, for us to withdraw support for Israel now would be absolutely the stupidest and most hypocritical action we could possibly take at this juncture.
We do apply appropriate political pressure with regard to human rights, and that’s as far as we do/will/should take it.
Yes.
The US supported Kuwait when they were wrongfully attacked and those chumps seem to hate us. How much did that cost?
If the Arabs act like civilized people there would not be such a need to help Israel.
Seems that the Jews were there before there was even such thing as a Muslim. Seems that the fighting begins with Muslims. Also seems that Israel, when attacked, has returned captured land for peace. But the Arabs keep at it
Seems that the end support for Israel is just a ploy to help the Arabs do what they do best - kill and destroy.
I thought I read that lots of the settlements were bought and paid for. That the Arabs sold the waste land for huge sums and only wanted it back after the Jews developed the land.
So, who is going to be the first to call him racist?
When was the last time the “Muslim world” laid out its grievances with Israel in a cogent manner without resorting to doomsday rhetoric and thinly-veiled religious hatred?
As well, when was the last time the governments (ahem) of most of these oh-so-bitten-by-Israel states addressed their own problems in a rational manner, rather than overemphasizing Israel to a ludicrous degree? Maybe it’s just me, but it would be funny if it weren’t so tragic: “General, what do you propose to do about the current economic crisis?” “Our situation is entirely the fault of the Zionists, and their evil US supporters! The blood of the Palestinians is on your hands!”
Signed,
occ, who has no loyalties to either side, but knows how to spot irrational behavior.
Yup it’s bigotry pure and simple. The amount of bigotry against Muslims and Arabs that supporters of Israel get away with in the US is quite amazing. And it never fails to amuse me to hear them screaming about Arab bigotry and then almost the next sentence display their own.
“When was the last time the “Muslim world” laid out its grievances with Israel in a cogent manner without resorting to doomsday rhetoric and thinly-veiled religious hatred?”
Well how about the Arab summit a while back where the Arab nations agreed to the Saudi peace plan which laid out the conditions under which Arab countries would agree to have normal relations with Israel.
What an amazing statement. The Arab world has been trying to destroy Israel for 50 years. Bigotry against Israelis is rampant. Egyptian TV is airing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
And we who defend Israel against this onslaught of hate are the bigots?
The argument that Arabs are just addressing legitimate grievances doesn’t hold water, unless you consider one of those grievances to be that Israelis have the audacity of existing in their proximity. Because Arabs have been trying to destroy Israel LONG before there were settlements and occupied territories.
“These pieces are by Jews (Gush Shalom is an Israeli organization), and so resist the tired ad hominem attacks that the speaker is a nazi or anti-Jew.”
Now we have to switch to the equally tired “self-hating Jew” label. 
It should be remembered that while support for Israel is the most often cited reason for Muslim populations hating us, it in some ways pales to the animosity derived from propping up Islamic distatorships(or “Royal Families” if you like). The Saudi and Kuwati governments aren’t the most popular with there own people and the people know where they get their money/weapons. We also were long supporters of Saddam, do think they’ll quickly forgive us for that when we finally replace him?
Dropping or easing support for Israel should be part of a more general diplomatic intrigue/military presence/financial stake reduction in the middle east. The whole world cannot be considered the West’s “backyard”.