UK Dopers: Has your country become a "nanny state"?

I admit it. Sometimes I go to Fark. In the headlines that get submitted I have noticed a trend about how the UK has become a “nanny state” where anything that could be considered mildly dangerous or threatening is being outlawed or where the government is subsidizing anything and everything. Here are a few examples from the past couple years:
Parents will be fined if suspended children are found outside during school hours.
72 year old man couldn’t buy alcohol because he couldn’t prove he was over 21.
You can be fined if you smoke while driving.
Department of Transport is recommending towns to reduce speed limit to 20 mph.
Home office will pay people who were denied asylum so they will return to their home countries.
Candles not allowed at cathedral because kids might catch their hair on fire.
Town’s Christmas lights can only be put up by qualified electricians.
Cops and council members confiscate a trampoline.
Cops riding bicycles “too risky”

I know it happens in the US and probably happens elsewhere. I just want to see if the UK Dopers have noticed this and think it is a real trend or if it is just an exaggeration. Thanks.

First thing you have to realise is that much of what you posted is largely from centre right rags, no-one in the UK is ever going to think any story printed in The Sun is credible unless its absolutely impossible to deny, such as a nuke landing on London.

Next. “The nanny state” is a political construct have a guess which part of the political spectrum it comes from.

For instance, the story about coppers riding bicycles, this storty is simply not true, I saw them doing this only yesterday.

One reason for the so-called nanny state stories is part of anti EU politcaling.

A great deal of Health & Safety legislation emanates from directives sent out from the EU, a directive is not a law, it is a statement that requires EU member states to enact legislation that complies with a a set standard.
Each state can decide just how strong those laws will be, but the directive sets a minimum level.

The idea is that all EU states have a certain baseline of legislation so that things such as Safety, anti-competition laws, Working Time regulations are such that no one state can undercut the others by having worse standards than others so that member states are not exploited in the name of a quick buck whilst other states take care of the welfare of their citizens - in other words its to prevent cut-throating.

Next point, Safety legislation is inconvenient, it costs a lot to ensure compliance, but ultimately it is about the protection of the lives and welfare of citizens.

A great many companies in the UK, along with vested interests in the media, would like to get rid of a lot of Safety legislation so as to make that short cut profit, but ultimately people will die or become disabled through just going to work.

Often what happens is that you get people who try to do health and safety on the cheap, and instead of hiring people who are trained and understand the law, and what a hazard and a risk is and the differance between them, they try to do it as an inconvenient add on.
The result is that untrained people, who are ignorant of the principles of safe working practices end up banning or preventing certain activities when its obvious that the risk of harm is negligable.

This sort of stuff is wonderful news for our centre right media.

Its usually cheaper to hire a Safety Consultant for a few months to find out how to continue carrying out the same activities safely than it is to actually ban the practice - short term costs verses longer term investment.

Safety can cost money if it isn’t done well, but try having an accident and find out what the true costs are, as an example, when company premises is damaged by fire, one third will never reopen, which loses business, jobs profits taxation - you name it, and yet most fires are caused by very easily prevented means, such as ensuring rubbish bins are kept outside and with steel lids on.

These silly “nanny state” stories are largely fiction, or highly exagerrated, for instance it was said that playing conkers was banned in some school playground, when the reality is that there is no need to do so, and few schools did ban it, and those who did so did not understand safety and the relevant requirement - but it makes good headlines for the Sunday Filthies.
I can think if many silly safety stories that somehow only appear in these centre right media, and they are all myths, google up these terms HSE Safety Myths and you’ll get the picture.

http://www.tuc.org.uk/h_and_s/tuc-12556-f0.cfm

http://www.kendalhang.btinternet.co.uk/myths/index.html

It’s exaggeration, and politicising of non-political topics, and it’s also Farkers not understanding the intricacies of the British press and its relationship with the public. Bearing in mind that Fark has a fair dose of freepers and the like, it’s become a circuitous stereotype over there, with articles being greenlit just because they fit in with this. Not to say that it’s only a concept on Fark, of course, as casdave explains. It’s become a meme of everyday discussion of trivial tales and myths, in the same way as ‘political correctness gone mad’ has.

To go through the specific examples and to look at them level-headedly (i.e. in a way you won’t fine on Fark):

A poor piece of legislation, which will rarely or ever see use in the way described in the headline. It’s very much designed as a last resort, where the relationship between school, parent(s) and child has disintegrated. At least, I hope that was the intention.

Also note that the initial fine is £50-£100, the headline £1k is a possible result of possible prosecution if the fine goes unpaid. (I presume the same could happen if, for example, a £60 speeding fine was not paid.) And note the alternative community sentence buried in the article.

A silly rule dreamt up by the management of one supermarket, being implemented inflexibly. And a pompous old man. Nothing to do with the law.

Simply not true. Buried in the article: ‘although the code carries no legal force, failure to observe its advice could be used as evidence that an offence had been committed’. There’s all sorts of things already in there that many of us do/fail to do regularly. People don’t get fined just for that, so this will be no different.

The UK has some of the safest roads in Europe by almost any measure, the one notable exception being the rate of injury to child pedestrians, so it seems right that something should be done. On the other hand, I very much doubt that article really tells us the whole story, or a fair summary of it. Note the source is the right-wing Torygraph who have to have at least one Labour-bashing article a day, by order of the Queen.

You’ve not got the right link in there. However, asylum is a political trigger topic, and it’s hard for any government to act in a meaningful and suitable way, because of the constant need to satisfy the rabid right-wing elements of the press. Plus the tendency of Labour to pander to traditional supporters who are veering towards the British National Party.

Oh, these things come around every year. It’s probably far more to do with very legitimite concerns about setting the building on fire. The article admits the cathedral gets so full people can’t move about - churches are about the only public buildings which do not have a set capacity for safety reasons. Evacuating that many people out of a couple of 15th century doorways doesn’t bear thinking about.

That sounds perfectly sensible. Why should it be any different to the normal lighting inside a public building?

Goodness knows what the full story is there, because we ain’t going to get it from the Sun.

Try cycling in Manchester, and you’d have more sympathy for them.

What we’ve got here is a mix of politically-slanted reporting, sensationalist reporting, plain old bad reporting, and very little straightforward nanny-ism.

Much of it is the increasing fear of expensive lawsuits and compensation payments if preventable injuries occur, but a large part of the ‘health & safety gone mad’ vibe is driven by organisations sending random numpties on a 2-day HSE course as part of their job, and then having them come back with a burning zeal to prevent any accidents and a complete misunderstanding of what is actually required by law versus what is recommended as best practice for certain (usually completely non-comparable) situations. They then tend to come up with all sorts of stupid bumf which should only result in them being laughed at, but which occasionally makes it into the media.
E.g. one of our real estate managers told our secretary that having a charity sweepstake poster taped up on the glass wall of an office was a “fire hazard” and would have to be removed. :dubious: She gave him a good mocking, and everyone within earshot joined in, and the poor pimply little git ran away to his basement and never bothered us again.
But certainly things like kettles disappearing from the workplace to be replaced by fixed hot-water dispensers are an example of this sort of thinking - we can’t trust our employees not to do something an eight-year-old would regard as dumb, and then sue our asses afterwards.

Yeah. As an indication of quality, the age title is "null’, the headline and article have random question marks in the middle, the article fails to mention where the trampoline was, who was using it, or any other meaningful information. For all we know she’d put the trampoline on the balcony of her 14th-floor council flat and two dozen teenagers were bouncing up and down on it at 3 am while sniffing glue and having unprotected sex. Although if that was the case I’m sure The Super Soaraway Sun would have given the story more prominent treatment.

Thanks for the clarification. You’re right, I’m not familiar with what is considered a right wing paper in the UK (I realize that the Sun is a “tabloid” and very sensationalistic) and so have to take it as I see it until I get the clarification from the folks living there.

Here is the corrected link about people who were refused asylum being entitled to money.

As a rough guide, the four main serious papers on a left-to-right spectrum are

Guardian - Independent - Times - Telegraph
The tabloids are all basically right-wing, trivial and sensationalist. The Mirror’s traditional Labour-supporting stance is a notable exception although in many ways it’s just like the Sun. Don’t be misled into thinking the Mail and the Express are newspapers. They are transcriptions of the foaming-at-the-mouth rants of a rabid journalist. (Edit: think Fox News.)

Reading the full article shows how asylum can be so easily reported in a way which feeds the appetite of a gossiping public, while the full story is something else. Forced removals cost an average of £11,000, and the proposed payments for willing returnees are far lower than this.

Well, although I tend to rubbish reports of “elf ‘n’ safety madness” I was flabberghasted earlier this month by our local council.

We have a large piece of common land where I live, and we thought it’d be perfect for Cub Scouts to play “wide games” on in the dark.

We contacted the local council as a courtesy - mostly so they didn’t get concerned about “gangs of youths” running riot in the evening.

An email arrived from the Environment Team, advising us that the common land is “not laid out for formal play”, and that we would not be permitted to use it.

Leaving aside the barmy notion of “formal play”, it did make me raise my eyebrows to such an extent that I almost wrote a letter to the Daily Mail.

I’ll put the email exchange up here tomorrow as a concrete non-sensationalised example from a “hell in a handcart” skeptic.

That’s probably an example of council workers, or perhaps just one single worker, finding it easier to play safe (hah) and just say no, when it’s something that they’re unsure about. Especially as the ‘environment team’ wouldn’t have the foggiest about what safety requirements or regulations may or may not exist regarding ‘formal play’.

It’s true, I believe, that we have become as a nation more risk-averse in the last decade or two, in many areas of life - and that we have expected some of the protection from risks to be institutionally managed. I don’t know if that amounts to a nanny state or not.

I agree about the increasingly risk-averse nature of the UK. But mainly these things occur due to petty martinets, or worried individuals who have an H&S brief, and want to avoid litigation.

Anecdote: in the last company I worked, our health-and-safety officer removed two unlit scented candles from a table in the middle of a large, high-ceilinged open-plan office, because they were “a fire hazard”. (I pointed out that the pile of paper by the printer was also a fire hazard, and at least the candles were designed to burn in a controlled manner - then I waved my cigarette lighter about - and went out for a cigarette.)

This is nothing to do with nanny-statism, it’s due to someone being terrified of litigation. And there are similar wimps working away in most local authorities.

However, a brief trip around most of our cities will show that we’re not even approaching particularly risk-averse yet.

Ahhh, poorly-trained health & safety officers, where would we be without them? Trouble is, far too many have got it into their heads that to avoid being liable, you have to eliminate all risk, whereas the truth is that you have to take appropriate and reasonable steps to minimise risks and hazards.

Um, unless I’m reading the article wrong he was merely asked if he was over 21, not asked for ID. In the US it’s not uncommon for octogenarians to actually have to present a valid photo ID or driver’s licence to buy booze. All that asshole had to do was say “Yes” and he’d have gotten his wine.

[URL=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/7003325.stm]72 year old man couldn’t buy alcohol because he couldn’t prove he was over 21.

What a dumb article. The whole Ask 21 thing is that anyone who looks like they may be over 21 has to prove they are 18 (not 21). At least 2 parties out of BBC News, Morrisons head office, and the local Morrisons got this wrong.

Other than the formatting error that should obviously read …may be under 21…

The OP may find this blog of interest.

Those people who remember That’s Life and its Jobsworth Awards will recognise that there’s little new under the sun.

BUT that fuckwittery is being highlighted is a good thing. It allows the rest of us to learn.

He was required to prove he was over 21 - ie. by showing ID.

It sounds like he had the relevent ID on him, but refused on principle.

A further thought on this…if it’s common land, do they have any right to state that you may not use it?

No, he was asked to confirm that he was over 21. All he had to do was say ‘yes’. Which shows (a) how ridiculous the shop’s policy on alcohol sales was, and (b) what a twit he is for thinking he’s making some great stand for our inalienable rights just by making the cashier’s job difficult.

The thing is, supermarkets use lots of young people in the registers, and they are susceptible to being influenced and browbeaten. To avoid any risk of making an underage sale, and to prevent challenges of the “you asked her for ID and I am obviously older than her so you can’t ask me for ID” type, Morrisons instituted a blanket ID for all policy. This is Corporate style Risk Averse behavior, but there are people who will always push at the boundary cases, so removing any element of personal judgment is becoming the safest option.

Si

“Check-out staff at Morrisons in West Kirby, Wirral, demanded Tony Ralls prove he was old enough to buy his two bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon.”