Ukraine.... your predictions?

[BrainGlutton]

@Steken

So… Any reasons why a peaceful partition of the country would not be a good solution to its woes?

1. Generally speaking, the fewer independent states there are in the world, the better.

2. The nationalist theory is that every ethnocultural nation should have its own state – and only one, united state – encompassing all territory inhabited by people of that nation. East and West Ukrainians have their differences, but not enough to make them two distinguishable nations.

[Jackmannii]

“Comrades, the peaceful nation of Russia has today sent its security forces into eastern Ukraine, to protect the independent peace-loving inhabitants from the counter-revolutionary hooligans who have been goaded on by the West to usurp the rights of the people. This is only a temporary measure [del]until we get our stooges back into power[/del] until a true people’s government can be elected.”

@BrainGlutton

1. Generally speaking, the fewer independent states there are in the world, the better.

if only we could convince all those silly people out there who want one.

[Ravenman]

@BrainGlutton

1. Generally speaking, the fewer independent states there are in the world, the better.

Uh, why?

[QuickSilver]

@BrainGlutton

2. The nationalist theory is that every ethnocultural nation should have its own state – and only one, united state – encompassing all territory inhabited by people of that nation. East and West Ukrainians have their differences, but not enough to make them two distinguishable nations.

I have to disagree. Russian speaking (Eastern) Ukrainians are culturally different from the native speaking (Western) Ukrainians. Both are slavic languages but they don’t see themselves (or each other) as having a common cultural background. I have a feeling the two sides will draw national lines.

[Malthus]

@QuickSilver

I have to disagree. Russian speaking (Eastern) Ukrainians are culturally different from the native speaking (Western) Ukrainians. Both are slavic languages but they don’t see themselves (or each other) as having a common cultural background. I have a feeling the two sides will draw national lines.

The split isn’t neatly by language. Due to “Russification” policies under the Soviets, many who self-identify as ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian and not Ukrainian. While Eastern Ukraine has a greater proportion of both Ethnic Russians and monolinual Russian-speakers, the two are not necessarily the same.

For example, the recently-unjailed Ukrainian leader Yulia Tymoshenko - former Prime Minister and very much an “ethnic Ukrainian” - spoke only Russian growing up-she only later spoke Ukranian-allegedly, not until she was 36.

Cite: Yulia Tymoshenko - Wikipedia

[QuickSilver]

@Malthus

The split isn’t neatly by language. Due to “Russification” policies under the Soviets, many who self-identify as ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian and not Ukrainian. While Eastern Ukraine has a greater proportion of both Ethnic Russians and monolin[g]ual Russian-speakers, the two are not necessarily the same.

True. More ethnic Ukrainians speak fluent Russian, than the other way around. It was required under Soviet control. But they never forgot that they were ethnically Ukrainian and most have returned to their ethnic roots in the years since.

[BrainGlutton]

@Ravenman

Uh, why?

More states = more possible international conflicts.

[Terr]

@BrainGlutton

More states = more possible international conflicts.

I know. Civil wars are much more palatable.

[CarnalK]

@Ravenman

Uh, why?

Some people seem to think a one world government is what we should all aspire to. Star Trek fans, mostly.

[Longshanks]

@Marmite_Lover

2 million Muslims is not miniscule but we are not talking about that.

Wrong. The Muslim population is more like 500k in a country with about 48Mil people.

[BrainGlutton]

@CarnalK

Some people seem to think a one world government is what we should all aspire to. Star Trek fans, mostly.

And T.H. White.

“About three thousand years ago,” [Merlin] said [to Arthur], “the country you are riding through belonged to a Gaelic race who fought with copper hatchets. Two thousand years ago they were hunted west by another Gaelic race with bronze swords. A thousand years ago there was a Teuton invasion by people who had iron weapons, but it didn’t reach the whole of the [British] Isles because the Romans arrived in the middle and got mixed up with it. The Romans went away about eight hundred years ago, and then another Teuton invasion – of people mainly called Saxons – drove the whole rag-bag west as usual. The Saxons were just beginning to settle down when your father the Conqueror arrived with his pack of Normans, and that is where we are today. Robin Wood was a Saxon partizan.”

<snip>

“Uther,” he said at length, “your lamented father, was an aggressor. So were his predecessors the Saxons. But if we go on living backward like that, we shall never come to the end of it. The Old Ones themselves were aggressors, against the earlier race of copper hatchets, and even the hatchet fellows were aggressors, against some earlier crew of esquimaux who lived on shells. You simply go on and on, until you come to Cain and Abel. But the point is that the Saxon Conquest did suceed, and so did the Norman Conquest of the Saxons. Your father settled the unfortunate Saxons long ago, however brutally he did it, and when a great many years have passed one ought to be ready to accept a status quo. Also I would like to point out that the Norman Conquest was a process of welding small units into bigger ones – while the present revolt of the Gaelic Confederation is a process of disintegration. They want to smash up what we may call the United Kingdom into a lot of piffling little kingdoms of their own. That is wny their reason is not what you might call a good one.”

He scratched his chin again, and became wrathful.

“I never could stomach these nationalists,” he exclaimed. “The destiny of Man is to unite, not to divide. If you keep on dividing you end up as a collection of monkeys throwing nuts at each other out of separate trees.”

– The Once and Future King

[CarnalK]

How silly of me to think the philosophy was based on Star Trek rather than Merlin the Magician.

[cckerberos]

@Steken

The Western-leaning, Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians get their own country - called either “Ukraine” or “Western Ukraine” or whatever - which is promptly made a member of the EU (hurray! welcome!);

Well, another aspect of the problem here is that the EU are actually quite ambivalent about whether they want Ukraine to join.

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@CarnalK

Some people seem to think a one world government is what we should all aspire to. Star Trek fans, mostly.

Why wouldn’t a world government be a reasonable goal in the long-term?

[Miller]

@CarnalK

How silly of me to think the philosophy was based on Star Trek rather than Merlin the Magician.

Rather, T.H. White versus Gene Roddenberry, which is a bit more of a contrast.

[CarnalK]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Why wouldn’t a world government be a reasonable goal in the long-term?

Why would it? Do you imagine an end to war? I think that’s cart before the horse.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Marmite_Lover

TOTALLY AGREE with this post

Yet again we have US meddling and interference in another nations affairs and the usual face of Mc Cain lurking and stirring up trouble somewhere as in Libya and Syria with his opposition rebels jihadists whatever you want to call them.

In Egypt we are lucky and managed to stop the USA meddling to keep Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood in power, with our army and with the help of the Gulf .

In Egypt it is only now that the full face of the US meddling using Egyptian dual national bloggers and activists and their foreign journalist partners with the help of Al Jazeera and CNN and other various US media outlets, has been revealed to us in Egypt.

Are you aware that Senator McCain and whatever Democrat he can find to go on these meddling junkets of his are not official US policy. McCain has no official authority to speak for the United States. I consider McCain to be a more a threat national
security and sane diplomacy because he had outlived any usefulness in that regard. I I believe teetering on the brink of senility and so full of bitterness for having lost to Obama. He is living way to far in the past.

You should erase the impression that McCain represents the USA on much of anything outside our borders.

[Malthus]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Why wouldn’t a world government be a reasonable goal in the long-term?

Depends on how it is run. Would you be happy in a world ruled by a guy like Putin?

Also, aside from obvious concerns such as that, there is an advantage in having a diversity of political and economic approaches. We haven’t, as a species, worked out the best way of governing ourselves yet (though respect for rule of law, human rights, and the will of the governed seems pretty universal aspects of success). Having a diversity allows for a multiplicity of experiments along those lines.

The drawback of diversity is the potential for conflict. Rather than a world-government, perhaps it would be better to allow for any number of states, but with an alliance of those nations committed to respect for the rule of law, human rights, and the will of the governed, strong enough to deter aggression.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

One world government is a fine ideal, but its constituent parts have to come together willingly. Before we get there, we need to undo (as much as possible) centuries of conquest and coercive annexation, which means in the short term it’s best to have *as many *countries as possible.s as possible.

[Batistuta]

The European Union shows the problems in trying to bring a large number of countries under the same framework of governance. What’s good for Germany today is not good for Spain, the interests of Sweden are very different from the interests of the UK.

Now, the EU is a relatively weak institution in an affluent region with small cultural differences. Try instituting a powerful government in a planet with huge economic and cultural variations, and you have a recipe for disaster.

How did we get from Ukraine to this, by the way?