Israel may be avoiding targeting power plants and other essential infrastructure but Trump has no such inhibitions. I mean, the US blew up a girls’ school and when confronted at first denied it then shrugged because the chuckleheads running the US government really don’t care about anyone else beyond their own selves.
Unfortunately, Iran does not seem to be drawing a distinction between the US and Israel at the moment.
We (not sure if it’s US or Israel but it applies to both) are avoiding hitting Iran’s oil because Trump doesn’t want oil prices to go up further and apparently neither the US or Israel had a plan for this dimension of the war.
Trump was the one who announced a 10-day pause on attacking Iranian energy infrastructure on March 26th, and as far as I can tell has been keeping his word, as has Israel.
Two drunk idiots are fighting, and one says “no hitting in the face!”… they stick to that for a few minutes, then the other one hits him in the face. Sure, I suppose he’s justified in retaliating… but what’s the point? It’s two drunk idiots fighting. Knocking over furniture and breaking windows. Nothing worthwhile is being accomplished. Just making a big mess for others to clean up.
You hit someone in the face hard enough, he’ll go down and stop hitting you.
Sure looks like we’re the ones on the verge of tapping out at this point. They’ve got us by the Balls of Hormuz.
I have noted, due to my habit of consulting non-US and even non-English news sources, that what most of the US media is dispensing in the way of news and what is actually happening over there are not the same thing. So I really can’t be sure what’s going on.
What IS certain is that the Orange One has been bellowing like a wounded bull about bombing Iran’s energy infrastructure. The constant threats may have prompted the Iranians to strike first. After all, the US government is trying to justify this war as pre-emptively striking Iran before they can develop nuclear weapons. If the US can strike first or “pre-emptively” then why can’t Iran?
Which, I hasten to add, is an explanation, not an excuse or justification (and I am certainly NOT claiming any special insight or understanding here).
It’s a long pattern with Trump that you can’t trust whatever time line he gives you. He’s been promising a solution to the US healthcare problems “in two week” since January 20, 2017 and still hasn’t delivered. He claimed this war would be done “in a couple days” and here we are a month later.
If the Iranians decided not to wait until their power plants were bombed I can understand the reasoning. Again, an explanation and not an excuse nor a justification.
This whole mess has been characterized by the US administration seemingly incapable of comprehending that the Iranians might have had contingency plans, succession plans in case the leadership was killed off, or might, you know, defend their nation rather than simply roll over and submit.
The US would do well to remember that the US attacked first in this war. But many in the US won’t.
Iran also made it clear that they would attack US allies in the region - Israel being one of those allies. Yet so many seem surprised they actually did that. Why? Oh, right - the US government is a bunch blustering, lying fools at this point. Iran also threatened to close the Strait of Hormuz but the greedy jerks in the administration, who only seem to value money, thought no, they won’t do that - it would mess up trade! Well, look at the Strait now.
Maybe folks should stop doubting the Iranians when they make a statement. Currently, they’re doing a better job of walking their talk than the US is.
No. What they thought was “we know we’re doing this before anyone else does, so we go long on oil and reap the benefits when oil prices go up.” With this group, follow the money. Always.
Trump, Trump, Trump. Everything’s about Trump to you people, isn’t it? Trump, and money.
This is a war between Israel, and Iran. Period. It’s been percolating for over 40 years now and it’s finally coming to a head. I admit, the fact that we allowed you to butt in was probably a mistake: it ties our hands and prevents us from actually hurting the Iranians where it counts, in the wallet. But mark my words: Israel does not care about oil. Israel cares about its security, and nothing else. So maybe we should burn the entire Gulf to the ground, if that’s what it takes to win the war. Let the Iranians keep Hormuz - see how much good it does them when the entire region is in flames.
80% of the world’s oil is safe. We can do just fine with that.
I’m sure they’re trying to profit from it too, but they’re idiots. There’s no grand plan. It’s just idiots flailing based on their feelings at the moment.
It sure seems to me like Israel is destroying their long term security, in the form of the alliance with the US and Europe, for short term politics.
Regime change has utterly failed. If anything we’ve strengthened the control the regime has over the country. How is this war making anyone safer? Even in the short term, Iran is killing Israelis as we speak.
At what point are you willing to consider that your country is run by malevolent, dishonest idiots (just like us!), with no long term planning whatsoever, and that this idiocy extends to this war as well?
Believe me, I have more than enough criticism against my own government, and against yours
Still, I think you’re missing a key point here: you and I are not on the same side of this war. What I want is for Iran to lose. I want the conflict between our countries over, permanently, not postponed by a few months or years. And I certainly don’t want to die eventually in nuclear fire. If Trump and Bibi benefit from that, it’s regrettable, but an acceptable price to pay. You, on the other hand, want Trump to lose. You’re no fan of Iran, obviously, but an Iranian triumph would be a small price to pay for Trump’s humiliation. Or am I wrong?
Yes, I want Trump to lose. I want Netanyahu to lose too. I want the Iranian regime to lose also. They’re all terrible. IMO, pretty much equally terrible - with the blood of tens of thousands of civilians on their hands.
But I also want Israel to survive long term (and the US, obviously). I want to tell my son about the country that came about as a safe place for Jews, about his great grandmother who barely escaped from Germany in the Holocaust. And I don’t want it to be an apartheid/Jim Crow dystopia barely hanging on with no friends in the world. There’s not much point to a supremacist Israel. Supremacism of any kind is bad for Jews (and for humanity in general).
But objectively, how the fuck can you have any remote hope that this war is leading to an Iran that no longer opposes or threatens Israel? Everything Israel has done for the last few years, and almost everything they’ve done for they last decade or two, seems designed to prolong the conflict with the Palestinians, Arabs, and Iranians as long as humanly possible (not that Iran, Hamas, etc., are doing any differently). It’s clowns running the show. Clowns antagonizing everyone, and accomplishing virtually nothing. Killing tens of thousands of civilians. You haven’t even destroyed Hamas!
Your chances of dying in a fire are going way, way up because of this war, and Gaza, and more. Iran is not losing. My own hatred of Trump and Netanyahu don’t change the facts of the war, and the Strait, and certainly don’t change how stupid (and evil) they are.
The assumption that Israel is safer because of this war is ridiculous and should be offensive to anyone with intelligence. Maybe there’s a chance that brilliant leaders could figure out a way to militarily actually degrade Iran, long term, or even foster regime change. But these idiots? Not a fucking chance. Not a sliver of a chance. They’re not evil geniuses with some grand plan that makes sense. They’re flailing idiots. War is not going to make things better for anyone aside from (maybe) defense manufacturers.
To a large extent, yes. Trump is our problem, and he really is a problem. He’s trying to make himself king and dictator. Thanks to him we have masked thugs terrorizing our people, citizens literally shot dead and left to die in the streets, and actual effing concentration camps. And Trump is all about Trump and money.
So yeah, we’re a little pre-occupied over here. No apologies for that, but you’re spot on in that we are pre-occupied.
Trump has decided to make it a war between the US and Iran whether Israel likes that or not. He’s still butt-hurt over the Shah being deposed and US citizens being held hostage for 444 days, whether he should be or not.
And, regardless of the actual situation on the ground there is a contingent in the US thinking that the US is doing this because Netanyahu wants to borrow our military and see it as proof the Jews control everything. Insert antisemitic conspiracy of your choice here. You and I both know that’s BS, but that doesn’t change that contingent.
I understand that.
Understand that Trump only cares about Trump and money. He thinks he can profit from this conflict, that he can just go in and take the natural resources of another country. So you are absolutely correct on that point as well.
If Israel destroys the Iranian oil and gas utterly you’ll see Trump turn on you. Because he only likes “his” Jews (and he really doesn’t distinguish between “Jew” and “Israeli”) that work for him and don’t get any silly notions of independence.
I can’t speak for @iiandyiiii, only myself of course so…
I understand that Israel and the US have very different motivations here.
I also understand your desired end state (actually, I’d like to see a permanent end to Middle-East conflicts that don’t involve nuclear fire as well even if I don’t have quite the same personal stake in the outcome).
It would be a bitter pill to swallow but I could exchange profit to evil oligarchs for a true, lasting peace in that region of the world.
I don’t want Trump humiliated - I want him and his backers out of power.
I, as a liberal and progressive US citizen with some grasp of history, want Trump and his cronies like the Heritage Foundation out of power. Why? Because, as I previously stated, we have masked, government employed thugs terrorizing people and shooting people dead in the streets. We have people being rounded up and confined without trial. We have minorities being targeted and demonized. As you are an Israeli I shouldn’t have to point out the parallels to another event in history. The Heritage Foundation has actually published their manifesto and plans, and they are putting no small part of it into action after only one year of Trump II.
With missiles currently raining down on your country and home I do not expect you to give much thought or concern about what’s going on in the US. You are properly concerned with your own defense and survival.
You are correct that over here it’s about Trump and money but there are some good reasons for our own pre-occupations.
I want to assure you that I do understand that Iran is an existential threat to Israel and I sincerely wish that you remain safe, your family remains safe, and anyone else you care about remains safe. I wish peace for the entire region, a true and lasting peace that doesn’t require bomb shelters on every corner or an “Iron Dome” defense system so people can spend the money on making the world a better place for everyone.
Well the reports I heard was that when asked Israel turned down the invitation to add ground troops to any US forces. I don’t have a better link at this stage.
Israel’s Channel 12 says Israeli soldiers will not take part in any potential US ground operation in Iran .
So if this is a Israel vs Iran war, it seems Israel prefers using it’s troops in operations much closer to home territory and just lobbing the odd missile into Iran.
So now Trump is threatening to destroy (among other things, including power plants and oil production infrastructure) Iran’s desalinization plants.
Now, I’m not prone to calling actions against enemy civilian infrastructure in war “war crimes” because I’m old fashioned in those matters and war has always included attacks on enemy civilian infrastructure, be it water wells, crops, bridges, power plants whatever.
But I understand that in theory, according to current international law that would definitely be a war crime right?
Yes.
It is a violation of the Geneva Conventions.
It is a war crime.
Practice relating to Rule 54.
Attacks against Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Civilian Population
Section A. Attacks against objects
I. Treaties
Additional Protocol I
Article 54(2) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove, or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), Geneva, 8 June 1977, Article 54(2). Article 54 was adopted by consensus. CDDH, Official Records, Vol. VI, CDDH/SR.42, 27 May 1977, p. 208.
Additional Protocol II
Article 14 of the 1977 Additional Protocol II provides:
Starvation of civilians as a method of combat is prohibited. It is therefore prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless, for that purpose, objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works.Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts (Protocol II), Geneva, 8 June 1977, Article 14. Article 14 was adopted by consensus. CDDH, Official Records, Vol. VII, CDDH/SR.52, 6 June 1977, p. 137.
Here’s how to stand on principle vis-à-vis the US. Other European governments, take note.