[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
No, it’s having to explain the obvious to people who are incapable of understanding hyperbolic speech.
[/QUOTE]
Bull. Fearing a teacher is a long way from knowing that if you screw up all your tests you’re going to fail. You really don’t give students a lot of credit, do you? Do you think that many of them who are doing badly blame the teacher not themselves?
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Well, it’s still a false analogy fallacy, but I would point out that certain companies, given enough money, would probably go to extreme lengths.
Of course I do. Anonymous comments, given in a private setting, that have no impact on anything other than the professor’s mood? What good is served by handing out discipline (read: punishment)? What do you think was accomplished in this case? Does the student no longer hate gay people? Is he tolerant? Enlightened? Or has he simply learned that he has to be quiet about his bigotry, any class evaluations can bite him in the ass if he offends the professor or is rude to him, or and next time he wants to insult a gay person, he has to at least type the letter and mail it anonymously?
[/quote]
I don’t see how it’s a false analogy. The professor is an employee of the University, and the student is a customer of the University. There are plenty of reasons for the student to be disciplined:
(1) Even though you casually dismiss the comments, they are quite hurtful and offensive. The University has a responsibility to maintain the morale of it’s employees. Allowing such hateful harassment to stand without response is unacceptable to employees. It sends a message that management isn’t behind their employees, and that it’s acceptable for students to harass them in this manner.
(2) Why the hell would you want this bigoted asshole to remain at your school? I’d have booted his ass out. There is no place for this sort of bigotry at any university.
(3) Maybe the student will get the message that such hate speech isn’t acceptable, and maybe he won’t. The fact that he might not isn’t a justification for not trying.
You have a job. Find a gay man at your office, tell him that you “hope he chokes on a dick, gets AIDS and dies” and see how fast you get fired. Walk down to the nearest gay bar and tell someone that you “hope he chokes on a dick, gets AIDS and dies”. See if they think it’s simply a rude comment.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
And, for that matter, where do we draw the line between rudeness and harassment? Is “I hate you, you were a horrible professor” actionable? “You suck?” “I learned nothing from you, I hope you choke on a dick?” “You’re the worst professor ever, take a long walk off a short pier?” "A gerbil could’ve taught your class better than you did? " “You’re boring and you have very bad breath, I fell asleep in your class all the time and you didn’t even notice?” etc, etc, etc…
Who gets to be in charge of the rudeness-o-meter and decide when a comment was rude but not “harassment” and when it was “harassment”? How about when “harassment” justifies violating a stated confidentially agreement and when it doesn’t? And who decides what level of harassment corresponds to what punishment? Can they fine a student? Give them community service? How about expel them? What if it’s a public, taxpayer funded university?
And along those lines, who decides how far it too far for the university to go? If they can hire a handwriting analyst to look at an evaluation, how about suing an ISP to get details of an obnoxious email sent under an anonymous name? How about hiring a private detective to track down someone who submitted a rude and disparaging letter to the school paper? And who is covered by these policies? Current faculty only? Former faculty too? Administration? Any staff member at all? How about other students? Should someone’s child be punished for calling some girl a “bitch”?
How about… a water buffalo?
[/QUOTE]
I’d love for you to come up with a line in the sand where “I hope he chokes on a dick, gets AIDS and dies” counts just as rude. Seriously, I think even Fred Phelps would blanch at that.
[QUOTE=treis]
I don’t see how it’s a false analogy. The professor is an employee of the University, and the student is a customer of the University. There are plenty of reasons for the student to be disciplined:
(1) Even though you casually dismiss the comments, they are quite hurtful and offensive. The University has a responsibility to maintain the morale of it’s employees. Allowing such hateful harassment to stand without response is unacceptable to employees. It sends a message that management isn’t behind their employees, and that it’s acceptable for students to harass them in this manner.
(2) Why the hell would you want this bigoted asshole to remain at your school? I’d have booted his ass out. There is no place for this sort of bigotry at any university.
(3) Maybe the student will get the message that such hate speech isn’t acceptable, and maybe he won’t. The fact that he might not isn’t a justification for not trying.
[/QUOTE]
But if they were supposed to be confidential, allowing the professor to see it in the first place is wrong, if not a violation of the school’s policy. What if the kid had just said, “You’re a lousy teacher”? The professor could have identified him by his handwriting in that case, as well.
If I were him and had to “write a 1,200-word essay on how his remarks affect the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender community,” I think I’d simply write “Not at all, until you guys made a big deal out of it.” 70.588235294118 times.
He calls one guy a fag in an anonymous evaluation and the entire community is affected? Puh-lease!
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
If I were him and had to “write a 1,200-word essay on how his remarks affect the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender community,” I think I’d simply write “Not at all, until you guys made a big deal out of it.” 70.588235294118 times.
He calls one guy a fag in an anonymous evaluation and the entire community is affected? Puh-lease!
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It’d be a lot more interesting to read an essay on how what he wrote affected the *teacher *he wrote it to. It’d be interesting to see if he could work up any empathy on that front.
Students often use course evaluations as a way to vent. They hide behind that anonymity (which I agree is useful for getting honest constructive criticism) to say some truly horrendous, hurtful things sometimes. I’m all for making students aware that what they say anonymously hurts actual human beings just as much as if they had said such things openly, but one shouldn’t be breaking one’s pledge to make the point.
How about, instead, an hour of freshman orientation devoted to how to write constructive criticism and why? “I hope you choke on a cock and die,” is no more constructive criticism than, “This class sucked.” or “The teacher is weird and ugly.” (Both comments my husband has gotten on evaluations, only I fixed the grammar and spelling.) Let’s teach people how to do it right: “It was really hard to stay awake during the class because the teacher lectures in a monotone and doesn’t include much discussion. I think it would be more interesting if we had more class participation and some hands-on learning as well as the lectures.”
My husband is a pretty damn good teacher. He’s not the best ever, he’s still pretty young and finding his way. He’s got over 30 ratings on ratemyprofessors and averages 3.7 in all the categories (except “hotness” :rolleyes: ). And some of the class evaluations he gets make him break down in tears in the privacy of our own home. Students have no idea what sort of impact their hateful words (nevermind whether it’s “hate speech” or not) can have on the real live person that has to read that shit.
And, realistically, students should be aware that 9 times out of 10 he knows exactly who writes the harsh stuff without any great amount of detective work. If you’ve turned anything in written by hand or if you refer to a private conversation or argument in your eval, the teacher knows who you are, dumbass.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Students have no idea what sort of impact their hateful words (nevermind whether it’s “hate speech” or not) can have on the real live person that has to read that shit.
[/quote]
I would guess that some students do, and some students don’t. I imagine that some students fully intend to hurt and offend.
I wonder if professors have any idea of the impact on their students if they are incompetent; or unfair; or abusive; or push a political agenda on their students. Probably some do and some don’t.
But note that the professor’s potential impact is more than just hurt feelings. The professor’s evaluation – commonly called a “grade” – typically goes on the student’s transcript forever. And is taken seriously by employers and grad schools.
The fact is that the professor has substantially all the power in the relationship. And that fact should inform the standards of what’s acceptable and what isn’t.
[QUOTE=brazil84]
I would guess that some students do, and some students don’t. I imagine that some students fully intend to hurt and offend.
[/QUOTE]
And you know what? If they know and they intend it, then that doesn’t bother me. It lets me know they’re an asshole, and so I know how to treat them accordingly.
If they don’t know and they do it, that’s unfortunate all 'round, and, as I suggested, addressable through education.
And evaluations are taken into account during job applications, internal promotions, retaining part-time positions and offering of tenure. Of course, most reasonable departments are going to ignore the most eggariously stupid evaluations, as they should. But student evaluations do have more than an emotional impact on the teacher.
I don’t believe causing harm is acceptable in any relationship, no matter what the power differential is. Just because my boss owns my ass doesn’t give me a moral pass on being an asshole to him. I can *choose *to be an asshole, sure. But I’m still an asshole.
If the teacher is incompetent or unfair, of course that should be pointed out in the evaluation - that’s what they are there for. The student should say that, and detail an example or two of specific incompetent or unfair behaviors that should be addressed. But making hateful comments is not pointing out incompetency or unfairness.
[QUOTE=treis]
(2) Why the hell would you want this bigoted asshole to remain at your school? I’d have booted his ass out. There is no place for this sort of bigotry at any university.
[/QUOTE]
After we purify the student body by expelling everyone who holds “unacceptable” views, who is going to be left? Bigots have just as much of a right to an education as anyone else.
Like W.S. Gilbert, I’ve got my own little list of people who “never would be missed”. If that offends you, too bad.
[QUOTE=monstro]
Why do you assume the instructor brought it up?
[/QUOTE]
I didn’t. The part you quoted was questioning if the complaint itself had any validity (i.e., does the prof bring up sexual issues in class when they aren’t entirely germane to the topic?) or if it was just a homophobe telling someone they’re gay because that’s the worst thing his brain stem can muster.
[QUOTE=monstro]
It actually isn’t even important if the guy is gay. The perception of such is all that is required to meet the legal standard of harrassment.
[/QUOTE]
“Mr Disponzio consistently brings up sexual issues in class that I do not feel are relevant to History of the Built Environment and direction he takes the in-class discussion makes me uncomfortable. My refusal to participate in such discussions appears to negatively reflect in my course grades.”
Which probably isn’t the case, mind you.
Sorry for the totally off-topic nitpick, but as a public service announcement I have to mention that “risible” means “causing laughter” or “easily provoked to laughter”
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Of course, most reasonable departments are going to ignore the most eggariously stupid evaluations, as they should.
[/quote]
That’s a key difference. If a student slams a teacher in an evaluation, the natural assumption is that the student has an axe to grind.
So any offensive comment is fair game for punishment? Any comment that hurts somebody’s feelings?
And what about a lousy grade? I’m sure a lot of students end up feeling bad if they get a “D,” especially if they feel they worked hard in the class. Should teachers be punished for handing out lousy grades?
The question for the thread is not whether the student in question is an asshole. Clearly he is. The question is whether the univ was right to break confidentiality and punish him.
[QUOTE=brazil84]
So any offensive comment is fair game for punishment? Any comment that hurts somebody’s feelings?
[/QUOTE]
Okay, I’m going to try this one more time. And I’ll use small words.
I’m suggesting education in lieu of punishment. I’m proposing a 1 hour mandatory seminar on how to write constructive criticism as part of freshman orientation.
I already shared my opinion of this case back on page one, and I reiterated it again on this page. Now I’ve moved on to what should happen in the future to reduce the chances of this happening again.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Okay, I’m going to try this one more time. And I’ll use small words.
I’m suggesting education in lieu of punishment. I’m proposing a 1 hour mandatory seminar on how to write constructive criticism as part of freshman orientation.
[/quote]
Ok, so you don’t think that the person in question should have been punished.
I was a little confused by your comment that you “don’t believe causing harm is acceptable in any relationship”
[QUOTE=Magiver]
Looks like a waste of time and a breach of the concept of anonymity not to mention free speech.
[/QUOTE]
Free speech does not mean speech without consequences. I think it’s unreasonable to expect you can threaten people, then try to hide behind free speech.
[QUOTE=Magiver]
The comments may have been relevant to the teacher’s ability to teach. If she were using her class to promote a personal agenda or openly discriminate based on sexuality then suppressing the comments could put the University at financial risk.
[/QUOTE]
Ok, clearly you did not read the link. If you had actually bothered to learn the specifics, you would see that your comments are ridiculous on their face. Mr. Joe Disponzio, the professor in question received the following comments on two different occasions (both from the same student):
How are the student’s comments pertinent to the question being asked or the exercise of professor evaluation as a whole?
[QUOTE=Magiver]
I had a particularly obnoxious math teacher in college who managed to piss off most of his class. A number of us went to the Dean and read him the riot act. The teacher was removed. I expect my money’s worth from teachers just as they would from any other professional.
[/QUOTE]
You are ASSUMING that the student’s comment had a basis in fact or objectivity. There are bad teachers and good teachers, but neither group deserves to be harassed and threatened.
[QUOTE=Linty Fresh]
Aside from the fact that the university is acting in a dishonorable manner by going back on its word, have we forgotten that the entire purpose of a liberal arts education is to teach students through the free expression of ideologies and opinions? Giving students the chance to speak their minds? A derogatory comment should be studied, dissected, and taken apart using the principles of debate and logic; it should not be suppressed by administrative action against the student. If students are not allowed to do this, then why have a liberal arts program in the first place? Send them off to business school or a science institute. Liberal arts degrees are for broadening the students’ minds, and administrative policies and actions like these are in direct conflict with this goal.
[/QUOTE]
Please tell me you are kidding? The GOAL of this exercise is to get meaningful feedback on a professor’s teaching skills. That is the only point of the exercise and the only grounds under which anonymity should be protected.
Even doctor-patient/lawyer-client can be waived under certain conditions. Why do you view the implicit promise made on a evaluation sheet to be to unconditional? Anonymity should be protected if it serves its particular purpose,
but this had nothing to do with giving constructive criticism or thoughtful evaluation. It could be argued that this student was breaking the law by doing this, why do you think the university needs to honor its side of the deal when the student broke it to begin with?
And before you start with some free speech bullshit about how we are criminalizing though and speech, let me mention a few things. It is harassment in many places to do any of the following:
The student’s conduct falls under a few of those definitions. Why should the University protect a criminal?
Again, free speech does not mean free speech with no consequences. I may be allowed to walk up to the president and threaten him, but I cannot expect that there won’t be repercussions for doing so.
[QUOTE=treis]
Fine, let me amend my example then. No company is going to stand for a customer telling one of their employees that they “hope he chokes on a dick, gets AIDS and dies”.
[/QUOTE]
If a customer turned in an anonymous comment card with this statement (which is a much closer analogy), how many companies do you think would hire a detective to track down and identify the customer, reveal his or her identity publicly, and force him or her to write a letter of apology?
A specific threat of violence would’ve been one thing; what this student wrote was nowhere close, and the attempt to spin it that way is risi… eh, let’s say ludicrous.
(On the other hand, what an idiot. “ney yorkers”?)
[Background: I have taught both undergrad and grad courses as a lecturer, and am close friends with dozens of faculty members]
Student evals should remain private, unless there is a statement that is strong enough to warrant police protection. The result of this exercise will be to get a lot of students to stop evaluating for fear of being hunted down. The University has done damage to it operations, IMHO.
At the university where I have taught, we don’t ever get the raw evals. We have a person on staff who types the evals for us, to prevent any sort of a handwriting witch hunt. In truth - the system has gone 100% electronic now (I was describing a few years ago), so that you can not check handwriting. Since it is logged, there is a way for a University admin to find a name, but I would hope that would never be done execpt in the case of a death threat (not a wish of death, an actual death threat). It should only be done with a warrant from a judge.
Students DO need to be taught HOW to evaluate. 18 year olds are often incompetent. The written comments are typically full of comments on dress code, how hard the tests are, how I was “mean” for expecting them to actually do the reading (and for not providing exam study guides), etc. They only compare me to other faculty, and I lose in comparison to the easy profs and win in comparison to the profs with poor speaking skills.
Students are NOT customers. They are NOT employees. They ARE students. This is a different world, and most analogies fail.
Students do NOT pay our salaries at a research university. Our budget comes from a variety of sources, and the percentage that comes from the actual student’s pocket is miniscule compared to taxpayer dollars, research grants, & endowments. Add in the few students who pay themselves vs. their parents and you get the gleam in my eye when one of the little darlings snarls at me that “I pay your salary.”
Student evals are typically less than 5% of the decision making process in tenure at a research university. Simply put, as long as you don’t suck the committee does not care.
I have my TAs read the written comments, and they pass on the quality constructive comments. This is less that 20% of written comments. The rest is ignored. Most undergrads have no clue how to evaluate. Most of them do not know if what they were taught was correct. They just get pissed off when I make them actually work (my variation giving them fear is making them actually do the reading and write papers - not just a bunch of Scantron exams).
[QUOTE=Oregon sunshine]
Sorry for the totally off-topic nitpick, but as a public service announcement I have to mention that “risible” means “causing laughter” or “easily provoked to laughter”
[/QUOTE]
Thanks awfully.
[QUOTE=Oregon sunshine]
Sorry for the totally off-topic nitpick, but as a public service announcement I have to mention that “risible” means “causing laughter” or “easily provoked to laughter”
[/QUOTE]
Good catch. Although, now that you mention it, I think FinnAgain might have noticed it.
[QUOTE=Algher]
5) Students do NOT pay our salaries at a research university. Our budget comes from a variety of sources, and the percentage that comes from the actual student’s pocket is miniscule compared to taxpayer dollars, research grants, & endowments. Add in the few students who pay themselves vs. their parents and you get the gleam in my eye when one of the little darlings snarls at me that “I pay your salary.”
[/QUOTE]
“Putting up with a little shit like you is above and beyond. Can I have a raise?”
Ever say anything like that to one of them?
FinnAgain did notice. I’m embarrassed to admit that I had a completely erroneous impression of what that word meant. For some reason, I thought it meanst something like “inflammatory,” even though a moment’s consideration of the Latin root should have told me otherwise. I thank FinnAgain for my correction. I should have googled the word like he did. Being wrong about a word meaning almost never happens to me. I’m stunned.