Unnecessary Adaptations (A TTT Rant) **Spoilers**

I am not a sword fighting expert, but here is a quote from Premiere magazine:

Mortensen’s facility with the sword became immediately apparent. “The people who were teaching him said that he was insanely talented,” says Miranda Otto, who plays the Lady Eowyn, who falls for Aragorn. “There’s one scene [at the end of] the first film where a knife is thrown at Aragorn, who clocks it with his sword. One of the stunt guys who was meant to be his double said, ‘I’ve been practicing that and I’ve never been able to [hit the knife] once, and Viggo hits it on the first take. I hate him.’”

I disagree. Aragorn’s swordfighting was serviceable, at the least. It was exceptionally good for a movie that wasn’t about martial arts. I felt they did a great job developing the fighting styles to fit the characters (the hobbits are unpracticed and oppurtunistic in their strikes, Legolas is quick and has a few jaw-dropping supernatural moves, etc.).

The small details in props, outfits, sets, etc. are what make or break a fantasy epic like this, and they were nearly flawless.

No, I don’t agree with every choice he made. Saruman is too much a stand-in for Sauron (although I love Lee in the role), Elrond’s mistrust of humanity is inconsistant. I disliked Aragorn’s fake death, and I’m not sure why they put elves at Helm’s Deep (although, other than the fact that it’s not in the book, I don’t see why not), but those are his choices to make. When I write and direct a version of LOTR, I get to choose differently. And choices like that have to be made.

I don’t think Peter Jackson is a Hitchcock or a Kubrick. You don’t get to be called that until you have decades of great films behind you, at any rate. But he certainly is a Spielberg, and he’s already put Lucas to shame. And I think, when all is said and done, LOTR, the 9+ hour mega movie that all three will make, may be counted among the best films ever made.

Damn, and I previewed and saw Tangent.

I disagree with partly, not with Tangent, obviously.

partly warmer: I cannot take credit for what you attribute to me. I was quoting DSYoungEsq. His reasoning was so well thought out and so eloquently written that I could not improve upon it. What’s more, it would have been hypocritical for me to do so–had I altered his wording any more than absolutely necessary to convey my agreement with his thinking, I would have been imposing my ideas upon his.

You know another great book ruined by some hack director tryiing to rewrite perfection? The Bridge on the River Kwai.

My God, think how much better that movie would have been had they followed the book more closely and kept all of the action within the prison camp and done away with all of that nonsense dealing with the bridge itself. I mean, does anyone actually need to see the bridge being built and then destroyed? They could have covered this entirely by having the men talk about it in the prison camp, and used all of that wasted time spent on the escape and return to destroy the bridge by expanding the duel of wits between the two colonels. Imagine it, two and a half hours of these two men talking to each other and waiting for the other to give in. Making that into a movie would have been real genius.

And don’t even get me started on Strange Brew. Rick Moranis and Dave Thomas sucked every bit of pathos and tragedy out of Hamlet; God only knows what they were thinking.

I have to admit, this is odd to me.
Don’t worry–I don’t want to rant and rave at you or anything, but I think it’s strange that the things you’re objecting to were some of the most carefully thought out aspects of the film. Of course, I freely admit that I’ve only ever wielded a sword during a Shakespeare play I was in, and not much at that, but from everything I’ve read regards the LOTR fight-choreography and weaponry as first rate. I was most impressed by the fact that the former was attributable to Bob Anderson–of course, not your average household name, but his resume is astounding. I checked IMDB just to be sure, and he’s the choreographer behind the fights in Star Wars, The Mask of Zorro, The Princess Bride, Highlander, Barry Lyndon, and tons of James Bond stuff. In one of the Making-Of shows I watched, they even said he worked with Errol Flynn. From this background I would be inclined to believe the man definitely knows what he’s doing with a sword.

As for Viggo Mortenson–his total dedication and work-ethic (as well as his outlook on “life, the universe, and everything”) make me flinch to hear him criticized. But I scrounge up tons of evidence in his defense–he holds his own without my help. All I’ll say is that I’m still floored to think that Weathertop was his first scene every filmed on the movie. What a baptism by fire.

I do agree about Eowyn’s skill though–I wish we got to see more sword-work with her, though I know it’s not technically supposed to come till Book III. But what a scene that will be.

But even if the fights don’t move you (or even convince you), I wouldn’t call the weaponry funding ill-spent. Of course We the Proletariat most likely can’t spot every hand-worked detail that goes into a historically realistic sword, but I think many people do see and greatly appreciate the amazing effort and skill behind the craftsmanship. Hard work isn’t lost on an audience–it’s definitely the extra touches that make people believe.
-Epi

p.s. To Equipoise: thank you for the kind words on my behalf. I think the kind of fanaticism you were objecting to happens with anything that’s loved as much as Tolkien–if you have a clear vision and great love of something, it’s easy to get defensive. But I try to stay zen. Thanks again.

Epigramcracker,

I agree with your general perceptions. I like Viggo as a person, and was impressed with the things he said (and were said about him by the other actors) on the DVD commentaries.

It’s great that the production took the care to consult weapons makers. Equally that they got a jeweler to make the versions of the rings. Even more getting potters to create unique dishes, pipes, and so on. As a trend, one can’t do anything but applaud this concern for detail.

Howsoever, a film has a limited budget, and obsession with one aspect which is a known quantity to the detriment of subjects that are less familiar to the director can raise costs without making a better film.

To my taste nobody’s much the wiser for armor quality. On film, it all looks about the same. Theatrical fencing is very difficult, however. I’m a fencer, as it happens, and to look realistic the actors must be good, and be well-trained. When this happens, it makes very exciting film. Examples which come to mind (though I haven’t seen them for awhile) are the Highlander series, and the Three Musketeer movies.

Viggo – for all his dedication – was swinging the sword on Weathertop as though he were scything hay. It’s not exciting – largely because the viewer can intuit that it isn’t realistic. Fault Jackson for not allowing sufficient preparation, and for not recognizing that to wield such a heavy sword Aragorn would have a huge, powerful chest and massive arms. His sword should have been replaced with aluminum (It probably was “authentic” steel). And also, for Mortenson’s build – with something considerably shorter.

The movie defers absolutely to “experts” in one area, while being blind to failings in other areas needing expertise. Jackson relies on others for expertise where a Hitchcock or a Kubrick would know how to make the judgment call themselves.

The result is a film with unexpected lapses. Where he had insight – allowing the hobbits time get to know one another during the production was an inspiration – the result is hugely successful. Where he didn’t have insight, he was at the whim of his advisors: Gollum is excellent, but other parts of the 3D animation were much less so. Rivendell is quite good, but Moria looks like a 3D Quake gamer’s interpretation of a particularly difficult game level, rather than a mine.

When a movie is dull and aimless – as TTT was – especially considering the relative success of the earlier movie – one has to ask “Why was the book version changed”? Part of the answer must be that they lacked material – that the first movie shouldn’t have cut out the Old Forest or Tom Bombadil or the Barrow-Downs – at least not all three. And probably it should have ended at Rivendell (or perhaps Moria). Then there’s less need to add action scenes: Aragorn falling off cliff, elves joining Helms Deep battle, Frodo being abducted to Osgiliath, Frodo confronting the airborne Nazgul.

If Jackson, wife and the other writer had had the insight and brilliance to add material of the same caliber of Tolkien’s – that would be one thing – but they were really struggling – as evidenced by the DVD commentary that script changes came so often that sometimes the actors didn’t have time to read them. So Jackson should have left the adaptations out.

He may have been insanely talented, but he had almost no time to learn. Stage fencing is extremely difficult, and needs practice and talent to get right. He wasn’t given the practice. The applause comes from how much he learned in a short time.

Hitting a knife out of the air is not fencing. I’m not being catty, here, it’s baseball. This isn’t a move anyone’s liable to make in a real battle. It’s certainly not something they’d train for.

I’ll give another example of what seemed weak martial arts: the DVD commentaries – going overboard with praise as was often the case – mention several times how incredibly fast the Legolas actor got at shooting. A standard for long bows in medieval times was 12 arrows / minute (the record is 21 / minute). I don’t have the DVD at the moment, so someone check me, but Legolas seemed to shooting a lot more slowly than that. Many years ago I had an archery class, and it seemed to me Legolas was slow even according to those standards.

I remember feeling as I watched the films they should have sped up the footage of Legolas shooting by about 100%.

Oh yeah, I think we had a guy like you at our community college. He was very strict about letting us check out equipment.

I must totally agree. And here I was thinking I was one of the few that actually liked FOTR better than TT :D. Too much unnecessary boring parts in this one for what? Maybe PJ was peeved he didn’t win the Oscar last year so decided to add in long drawn out, symbolic portions to score with the voters, who knows?

I think Aragorn falling off the cliff and what came of that… and Frodo’s trip to Osgiliath were not needed. They did end up streaching the film out to 3 hours, which made my g/f pretty grumpy as her back started getting sore sitting in the uncomfy chairs of the theater for that long.

I haven’t read the books, and anyway I don’t care about changes in plot per se, but there were a number of things in the movie that didn’t make much sense.

We see Treebeard walking in view of Isengard with Merry and Pippin en route to the Entmoot, so it seems clear that the Ents already knew about the clearcutting. Also, a little earlier Treebeard was going on about orcs hacking and burning through the forest. So when the Ents decide not to go to war, but change their minds when Treebeard shouts from the edge of forest, it all rings false.

Setting aside the differences between movie Faramir and book Faramir, why did movie Faramir decide to let Frodo and company go? First he’s all gung-ho to use the Ring for Gondor, then it’s “Off to Mordor with you”. Perhaps it’s because he sees Frodo trying to kill Sam after the incident with the Nazgul, but we aren’t really offered any glimpses into Faramir’s thoughts, so the change of face seems to come out of nowhere.

The argument of whether to go to Helm’s Deep should have been a non-issue, especially for Gandalf who has been around more than long enough to know better. Sending a small cavalry force against a large army on open ground is just plain dumb, even if you allow that they didn’t know how huge the orc army was until Aragorn showed up at the fortress.

At Helm’s Deep, I would think that an adult woman would be a better choice of soldier than a ten year old boy, especially since Eowyn implied that all the women are at least familiar with basic swordplay. But at least that has some historical precedent.

I also didn’t like the way Helm’s Deep was designed. The main keep should have been entirely inside the outer wall instead of forming a corner of it, making it harder for the orcs to use the large siege ladders, and also making a more effective defense if the outer wall fell. A raised drawbridge would have prevented the battering ram attack, unless the orcs had brought something more elaborate. The sally gate where Aragorn and Gimli emerged was neither well hidden nor very sturdy seeming.

Blame Tolkien.

First of all, thanks for addressing my points clearly. Of course it’s obvious that neither of us is going to be able to convert the other, but hey, what are message boards for? (;

The last thing I wanted to address was all you’ve said about the “fencing” not being up to par. Although I’ve stage-fenced once and don’t pretend to know a THING about its real technique or nuances, I would agree that it’s very hard. But having also stage-fought with a broadsword once, I’ve found that the two styles are incredibly different. Wielding a broadsword, when you compare it to handling a rapier, is a bit like “scything hay.” Simply by nature there’s less grace involved–not to say that the weapon can’t be handled skillfully–and more “hack and slash.” Viggo aside, it seems that while the basics of fencing and two-handed sword fighting might be similar, the actual presentation is very different.

I myself have a personal affinity for double-dagger, but I admit it’s a bit of an underhanded style. :smiley:

And all that,
-Epi

Plus, Aragorn’s broad “scything hay” style for Weathertop may have been a concious decision on teh part of the fight chereographer.

Aragorn can’t really hurt the ringwraiths, he probably knows that. Fighting them well to get a good cut is futile. He’s just trying to get them away from Frodo. Swinging the sword wildly forces them to keep their distance, and maybe parry so that he can get in a hit with the torch.

It’s worth noting that in the book (IIRC), he uses two torches, and no sword. But that would look slightly goony on film, so the filmmakers compromised for somthing that would look more exciting to a modern audience.

Wasn’t Merry’s arm paralyzed after he connected with the Witch King? With so many miles left to Rivendell, trying to actually cut one of them and losing your sword arm in the process might be a really bad idea.

epigramcracker makes a good point. a broadsword is very different from rapier. very different styles. with a broadsword you just want to get the fight over very quickly, no dancing around. a good long slice or two and your opponent is out of your way. so moving like you are cutting hay will work, (esp. if you are cutting that hay near the tummy area of your opponent) to get out of the situation fast.

now if you have a katana… you can look really pretty and make many nice moves, and play with your opponent a bit.

Another point is that the edge of most broadswords was not very sharp as compared to a good knife because it had to be so incredibly thick to avoid breaking when it hit armor. Thus the tactic was to swing with as much force as possible to cause a wound through crushing power.

Oh, partly-warmer is a fencer! That clearly means he’s an expert in how to hold off five opponents with a broadsword in one hand and a flaming torch in the other while at the same time preventing all five of your enemies from attacking any one of four helpless people lying prostrate on the ground.

Of course, this is from the same guy who’s idea of astute critical analysis is counting how many syllables each character uses in his dialogue, and complaining if the same number keeps coming up. So, personally, I’m not putting a whole lot of weight behind his opinions.

I thought he was the AV guy.

I don’t recall in detail all the other wonderful opinions you’ve zinged my direction but:

  1. It’s partly_warmer, not partly-warmer.
  2. I fenced sabre at university for three years, taught by an Olympic medal winner. That imparts a certain amount of expertise.
  3. Strider trying to fence five people at once in that manner would have caused him to be killed, as the first Nazgul the Aragorn’s sword passed could instantly repost and hit him.
  4. In the book, Strider uses two flaming pieces of wood to attack, not a sword. Which is viable – because the Nazgul don’t like flame.

And finally,

  1. My idea of astute character analysis is to evaluate whether somebody sticks with the facts, or resorts to personal insults to win their arguments.

Does that also apply to pasty-faced WETA set managers? Or bourgois horror movie directors and their (sneer) “adoring” wives? You’ve got the surly AV guy schtick down pat, I’ll grant you that.