His4Ever, then what exactly must someone do to convince you they’re a Christian. You see, if someone hands me a pamphlet intending to convert me to Christianity, I’m going to assume they think I’m not a Christian. I’m not likely to think well of that person as a result. If someone is willing to give up a perfectly good Sunday morning (or evening, or Saturday night for that matter) and drag themselves even a few hundred yards to a church, I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they’re at least somewhat interested in this faith and are some sort of Christian, or, in the case of kids, at least their parents are. It’s a shame you’re not willing to do the same.
Based on evidence on this board alone, Jack Chick puts people off Christianity. Telling kids out to see how much loot they can get in one evening that they’re going to Hell for doing so strikes me as also pretty likely to put them off Christianity. That’s sort of the opposite of what we’re supposed to be doing.
They could also get the impression that Christianity is all about rules and hell. A religion that threatens the fires of hell is not something kids need IMO. They also could read the things and realise they are absolute shite which could give them the impression that it’s all shite.
The Jesus I was told about when young wasn’t a threatening character and I was brought up a Irish Catholic.
With all due respect to Vanilla, I don’t see how the trick-or-treaters handing out their own pamphlets is any less obnoxious. In fact it’s probably worse. as Rex pointed out, if you knock on someone else’s door and ask for something, you don’t have much room to complain. But if you knock on someone’s door, ask for something, and then shove a tract in their face, well, that’s just rude, not to mention sanctimonious.
Hey H4H, vanilla, you still haven’t explained how a holiday that has it’s origins in Christian mythology is “evil” or needs to be “takn back”. What’s the deal huh? Why not make a decision based on facts, not propheganda.
For those interested in the true origins of the holiday and what it means today in American culture, American Heritage magazine had a wonderful article all about it last year.
Honnestly, I don’t see a major problem with people adding a pamphlet in the bag of candies. That’s somewhat spoiling something which is supposed to be a fun event, but after all, these are knoking at people’s door. It’s not like the say fundies were going out of their way to convert childrens (like say, handing out pamphlets at the doors of the school). The parents allow their children to visit neighbors, and ask them something, they should be able to deal with unexpected results.
And anyway, the parents can still talk with their children about the content of the pamphlets, or take them away, etc…That’s honnestly not a big deal. If parents are really, really unhappy, they can tell their children not to knock at the door of this particular fundie neighbor. I don’t think they’ve any leg to stand on for complaining if the neighbor gives/says to their children something they don’t like. Of course, it’s very poor taste to seize any chance to give out propaganda of any nature (religious or not) to children, but well…there are worst things which could happen to kids…
However perhaps I don’t get at all the whole Halloween thing, since it’s an american thing.
I woud add though that I’ve an issue with Chick’s documents. Not because people shouldn’t give religious or whatever else kind of propaganda, but because these tracts in particular are so filled with lies, and worst, hate, that I really have a serious issue with people who would actually want to spread these hateful documents. If I believed there’s actually a god and a devil, I’d no problem deciding which of them inspired these things (hint : not a benevolent being) and where exactly the author will spend his afterlife (hint : in a really hot place).
Oh please, Cynic; everyone tells me how well-behaved my son is. He knows his manners, in fact, it was His idea to do this-it was at least 3 years ago, when he was 5 or 6.
So, its a crime now to hand out tracts?:rolleyes:
Meatros: I have one child, therefore, one M&M.
I could go as a large hand with smudges all over, as they do melt in your hand!
Its true!
I didn’t say it was a crime, Vanilla, I said it was rude (well…let’s just say misguided). I don’t doubt that your son was nice and well-meaning, but he should have been taught that people have different views of religion, and people should not be given pamphlets unless they ask for them.
I guess I don’t understand the impulse to hand out tracts in the first place. Why do you care what someone else believes?
(I’m not trying to pick a fight here, I just know that I always feel mildly insulted when people try to “save” me. A child should understand that proselytizing is not always welcome.)
My understanding is that since some people believe in a literal hell that is a bad place they want to spare people it by converting them. Misguided but at least an act of compassion. Others have found a lot of comfort in their faith and want to share it with others. Those of the second type are easier to deal with than the first because they can usually be convinced you find your current beliefs as comforting as they find theirs. Then there are the kind that give the appearance of trying to convert you because they are required to or because they want to lord it over people. These types are nearly impossible to deal with and it is best to just pretend they aren’t there as they’ve long ago given themselves over to Ignorance.
The last type are the ones who bother me. When I was in college, I couldn’t walk a hundred yards across campus without getting handed a pamphlet. at first I would just politely accept the tract and look for the nearest trash can as soon as I was out of sight. By my senior year I was completely fed up with it and one day I just pointedly walked right past a guy proffering a tract without even acknowledging him. Then I felt guilty about it all day, so I went back to being polite.
I would certainly never be mean to a child who offered me a tract, but they should be taught that not everybody WANTS to be handed a pamphlet.
Poor poor Bill Schnoebelen, can’t you see? The vampires, Masons, Catholics etc…realized they were saddled with a true blue wackjob at some point in their relationships with Bill- They tried making comments about his personal hygiene, they tried restraining orders, unfortunately Bill would not take a hint. As a last ditch effort, they rented out a studio backlot, tacked up a poster with “Horrifying secrets of the Ancients (including various Eastern philosophies)” and told Bill the only things that would MAKE HIM LEAVE THEM ALONE. And thusly, we, the general public are burdened with him…Alas.
God, in New York if you so much as make eye contact with a street corner pamphleteer, you’re gonna have a pamphlet shoved in your hand…although it’s more ads for strip clubs and discount suit stores and the union strike of the week than it is religious stuff. If I acknowledged the existence of pamphleteers on my way to work, by the end of the day I’d have an inches-thick body of reading material.
I came across a Gideon last week, handing out New Testaments on the street corner. I politely refused, partly because I have more Bibles and NTs than I need, but also because I loathe the KJV.
The Word is meant to be spread in the local vernacular, and I told him so. He looked at me kind of surprised, I guess he had me figured as a non-believer. I have the same beef with the old school Catholics that are trying to bring back the Latin Mass.
FWIW, the Gideons are doing the job right, because the pass out something that lets you make up your mind on your own. Jack Chick is no different than the militant Muslims, IMAO.
H4e: many, many people on this board have stated that Chick tracts are one of the things that contributes to their having a low opinion of Christianity. Thus giving out Chick tracts seems to actually make people less likely to become Christians. I take it then that you’re anti-Christian and attempting to drive people away from the Lord? If not, why are you still doing things that you know will have that effect?
Not trying to upset you, CJ. Don’t think you’re quite understanding what I mean, but that’s ok. Was just trying to make a point, sorry. Not saying that someone who’s going to church isn’t a Christian. Just pointing out that that isn’t what makes a person such. I’m not sure you’re really understanding me.
What, in your opinion, would draw people to the Lord? And by that I mean a saving faith in Christ as Savior. As far as I can see, Chick tracts present the gospel in that they teach one must accept Jesus as Savior to be saved. This is also what the Bible teaches. I guess a lot of people here don’t believe that. But enough about Chick tracts since they plainly upset most people here. Should we just tell people what they’d like to hear in order to keep them happy? How is this reaching them for Christ? People need to be told truth, not just whatever their itching ears want to hear, at least IMHO. I don’t just use Chick tracts, I also use one called the Four Spiritual Laws. So what is your answer as to how to win people to Christ?
We’re running into one of our fundamental (if you’ll excuse the term) points of disagreement. I firmly believe that whether a person is a Christian or not is between that person and God. No one else has the right to make that judgement. Therefore, when you say “not everyone who goes to church is a Christian”, it sounds to me like you’re usurping God’s privilege. As a result, I’m afraid I bust your chops. I think it would be the equivalent of me telling you, “You can be a Christian and worship Satan.” That, by the way, is something I don’t believe.
Also, as I mentioned, thanks to an anti-depressant which may have been invented by Satan as of midday tomorrow, I will have been nauseous for one full week. There’s a thread about it in MPSIMS.
Hmmm. Given the way I’ve been feeling, maybe permitting kids to eat themselves sick on candy may be the work of the Evil One after all. Nope. My money’s on it being a learning experience. The extortionate rates my little brother used to charge me when trading for Clark Bars (I loved them, he didn’t), now those were evil. Come to think of it, if that’s how Kenneth Lay got his start, the Fundamentalists might have a point.
Of course you shouldn’t just tell them what to hear. I didn’t say anything at all about the content of your message, I’m talking about the way in which you deliver it. You know that handing out tracts alienates many non-Christians an only serves to confirm their already low opinions of Christianity, rather than bringing them closer to Christ. Surely there’s another method you could use, one that actually works to draw people to the Lord, rather than serving Satan’s purpose by driving them away?
Look, I can tell you what sort of witness works to draw people closer to the Lord because it’s worked on me. I was raised Christian. When I was about fourteen or so, I started to become disenchanted with religion. I’d been told “they’ll know we are Christians by our love,” but all the Christians I knew were bigoted, close-minded and arrogant. Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruits, and the fruits of Christianity that I saw were hatred, ignorance, hypocrisy and self-righteousness; clearly it couldn’t be the true faith. So I rejected Christianity and became an atheist who was fairly hostile toward religion in general.
Well, I went on like that for a while. And then, gradually, I made a few friends who were Christian. In all these cases I didn’t know they were Christians at first. They didn’t hide their faith either, though; they just didn’t make an issue of it on first meeting someone. They didn’t pass out tracts or give the impression of deliberately trying to convert anyone. But when religion came up, they stated their beliefs firmly. More than that - they were kind. They went out of their way to be compassionate and do good to others, more than anyone else I’ve known. And they were all smart and funny and fun to be around, too. (In short, yes, they were a great deal like our friend Polycarp.)
I want to emphasize that these people - well, they’re all different, and I don’t know if you’d agree with any of them about every religious issue, but I don’t think any of them believe what you’d call “watered-down Gospel.” That is, they don’t believe that unconditional love means God doesn’t ask anything of us. They believe in a God of justice as well as mercy.
I still remember the shock of the day when I suddenly realized that out of my friends, all the ones I most admired were the Christians. That’s the day when I finally saw what “they’ll know we are Christians by our love” means. If good people like them were Christians, maybe there was something to it after all. So I started looking into it again and reading Christian essays. Today? I believe in God again, and I believe in a lot of Christianity’s teachings. I’m not sure about all of them, but I’m starting to go to church again, and I’m thinking about it. I wouldn’t be surprised if I became a Christian again eventually. I don’t know if I’ve got what you’d call “a saving faith in Jesus,” but I know there’s a lot better chance I might get there now.
Do you realize what a miracle that is, H4e? I was an atheist who was hostile toward religion, and now I believe in God, attend church and am considering becoming a Christian again. And I can assure you that if one of my friends had pulled out a tract on first meeting me, it never would have had a chance to happen. I’m suggesting that a lot of the people you’re trying to witness to are in the same boat I was. You can try to set an example of Christian compassion and charity to prove their misconceptions about Christianity wrong and bring them to God, or you can hand them tracts and (in their minds) confirm their ideas about Christians and drive them further away.
as of midday tomorrow, I will have been nauseous for one full week. There’s a thread about it in MPSIMS.