Urban warfare-how do you think we will do?

With the lack of technology involved in urban warfare, (compared to other types of attacks that WE use) do you think we will be prepared?

The best laid plans …

Urban warfare will be dirty. Expect considerable coalition casualties if we have to go that route. If coalition countries continue to lose the propoganda war, it could be worse than anticipated.

Depends if they have to invest the city or not, or how much they have to invest.

The last time the americans fought in an urban enviroment was mogadisu , with no armor , no fast movers , light gunships and limited forces , its amazing what those rangers actually accomplished.

Before that , one would have to look at Que , in Vietnam , in which case the marines were fighting street to street , house to house , in the middle of a general uprising by the viet cong where everyone was fighting somewhere in Vietnam, so overwhelming force could not be brought to bear.

The American army and marines are more interested in figthing a straight up war of maneuver which lets them bring all their assets to bear on an enemy using combined arms doctrine.

That being said , this one is gonna be for the history books and war colleges. Being the remains of the Iraqi para military forces are gonna fight dirty , and its not clear yet if the Americans are gonna give everyone 48 hours to get out of the city and treat whats left as a hostile force.

Possile wild card , is that they believe that the Iraqis are gonna use what ever nerve gas and chemical weapons they do have , once the the marines and army pass a certain ring. If that does occur then standard doctrine for deterence is to use nuclear weapons on the miscreants , not for the Iraqi’s benifit , but for every other country that happens to be watching the conflict.

If we rule out a prepratory nuclear bombardment, then its going to be a draw and quarter engagement. Place probing forces in , let the Iraqis come out to play ,and then engage them with either artillery or fast movers on station. With only 25 k originally of special iraqi forces , plus whats left of the republican guard , its likely that certain parts of Bagdad are going to resemble Berlin 1945.

One possible ace in the hole for the States , is that they were training a certain amount of Iraqi expats , at a hungarian base. Its possilbe that they are gonna infiltrate bagdad with special forces and cause merry hell , once the show gets under way.

Declan

It won’t be as bad as some make it out. The U.S. also has the overwhelming advantage even in street combat, where armor can be helpful and kill boxes still work, just not from the air strikes. But again, with air precision, you can still call for fire from above with accuracy never before imagined.

Special Ops and calling in and tagetting strikes will still happen. You will see friendly fire incidents go up, but piece by piece, you have an enemy is is wathsdrawing and wiht no supply line, no direction.

Politically, time was not on the US side, but so much has been done to prep people for ‘patience’. When moving into Baghdad, coalition forces can move piece by piece to their advantage. The enemy is at risk when they move. The US seems to have the support of the US people to take it slow and do it right/deliberately…and that makes block to block combat easier to plan.

Additionally, the US lets the media tell a certain story about “immenent” attacks and inevitable battles, then does something different.

Whatever happened to the immenent beach assault in Kuwait. EVERYONE watched for it, and the US faked it and flanked the Iraqis.

Whatever you expect right now will be used as a setup to get an upperhand on the Iraqis.

Don’t you love how they got ‘bogged down’ last week? All that did was make the enemy move, and a moving enemy is a soon to be dead enemy. Buh-bye armor, buh-bye personell. Thanks for moving and reinforcing on ‘bogged down’ US troops. You helped us bomb the rep guard into hell.

I don’t know how effective armour will be in the city. It is not as manoverable as the nice open deserts and roads. If the civilians open fire on troops it gets muddier.

The more I have been reading on this war, the recent history in Iraq and some of the tribal alliences Saddam forged in the last 11 years, the more I wonder if some of those soldiers dressed as civilians are not actually civilians firing on the troops?

I’m sure the Soldiers are th ebest trained but look at the injuries the Brits are taking in Basra, Baghdad is much larger and more heavily protected. Unless they will level every building it will be messy. I also don’t think Post War Iraq will peacfully live without Saddam. Thay are not likely to buy “we are liberating you” line when they are in the line of fire.

Urban warfare will be limited. The Iraqi people who have been conditioned by centuries of authoritarian control will lay down arms with a suddeness that will be surprising to we of the west.

In Iraq you learn to live with whomever is in control, not love them.

What the ever loving FUCK?

Just like in Basra, eh?

shrug Urban warfare always goes badly, and people die. That’s pretty much a given. Not that the US isn’t going to win, but, you know, it doesn’t mean it won’t be a terrible, nightmarish thing.

I’m sorry for what those soldiers will have to do to themselves and others in pursuit of a cause.


***What the ever loving *FUCK?

Just like in Basra, eh? - McDuff**

Ah McDuff, you English have such a pretty use of the language.

Unfortunately your insight into the nature of the Iraqi mindset will be tested in Baghdad very very soon.

At that time I will bring your comments ( as made above ) to your attention.

This I have to see! I mean realy what is the difference in the psyche of the Iraqis between Baghdad and Basra or any of the other hot spots? What insight to the “Iraqi mindset” do you have that we haven’t seen yet.
Or that my Iranian and Iraqi friends have not enlightened me on?

Sorry chum but if Rumsfeld and his folks actually listened to the interviews with actual Iraqis before the war they may have chuckled at the quaint statements of defience and statements like “I will side with my brother against my cousin, but with my cousin against the foreigners”.

I don’t think they are laughing now.

Do you seriously think that only the Iraqi army or just a few Republican guard divisions are fighting? I’m sure it will come out soon enough that civilians are also taking shots, and will be taking shots at their liberators.

That under all this stress they still haven’t actually surrendered en masse doesn’t seem to back your statement. Can we hold up your comments to your attention on the second or third day of the Urban war?


Kingpengvin : “… What insight to the “Iraqi mindset” do you have that we haven’t seen yet.
Or that my Iranian and Iraqi friends have not enlightened me on?”
**

None Kingpengvin, none, that is, other than being a thinking citizen of the United States, where we have a history of overthrowing tyrants and freeing the oppressed.
Now, very carefully, follow the logic…

The people of Iraq have lived as minions of Saddam Hussein for twenty-five years. Twenty-five long years of not knowing if a slight casual action or completely innocent remark could be found offensive by one of Saddam’s henchmen and result in torture.

Here’s a Zen-like exercise that might help…

Breathe in deeply and hold it…You are are a overfilled burlap sack of potatoes, bound by a strong string tied tauntly at the top. For twenty-five long years you live within this tenseness.

Now before you turn blue, breathe out. Congratulations. The wonderful, brave soldiers of the United States of America, and Great Brittan, and Australia, have just cut your string.

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!

You forgot the Polish Special Forces

Ah so you quickly decide to forget other issues such as cultural history and long lived distrusts. Instead you look on your own nation’s history and assume everyone is the same.
The mind boggles. Good to see that “being a thinking member of the United States” makes one automatically an expert on human nature or at least a grand prognosticator.

If I remember history properly when Berlin was invaded the people did not simply drop their weapons because they were free from Nazi Tyranny which had lasted a mere twelve years.

Instead, they batttled house to house even after the actual Nazi party was no longer able to exercise its direct control on the populous. Same for Stalingrad and most other major urban centres invaded by a foriegn power.

It is surprising how quickly foreign soldiers can rally a people around their leader no matter how benign they may be. The Battle for Baghdad has offically begun so in the next few days we’ll see what will happen.

The Marines are 30 km from the outskirts of the city and have had success but mind you the forces they met had been under constant bombardment throughout the campaign. Once they reach the interior it may be a different situation.

I’m surprised there is anyone who still is under the illusion that the Iraqis are just looking for an excuse to surrender rather than fight.

I would prepare for it by putting on a nice suit, perhaps with a crisp Egyptian cotton shirt with nice cuff links. I’d have an understated tie around my neck, and a nicely folded handkercief in my breast pocket. While I generally prefer stainless steel watches, I think a gold Patek Philippe on a leather band would be more suited to the situation. And a perfect haircut and a light cologne would be nice.

What? Oh. I thought you said urbane warfare. Carry on…

Um… I really don’t see why the Iraqi people would lay down their arms and give up because they’ve been ruled by a brutal dictator for years. In fact, it seems to me that the exact opposite will happen. In my opinion the only way to gauge the way the Iraqis will respond is to imagine if it was your house and your city that was being bombed. Whatever you think you know about Saddam’s tyranny, these are the people that have learned to deal with Saddam… most of them have probably become as comfortable as possible with Saddam as their ruler and like everyone they just want to live their lives. Something tells me that no matter what WE think of their situation in relation to our own, it’s not a given that they share that perspective. America has problems of it’s own and yet we seem to be good at denying their existence entirely. Why would the Iraqi people be any different?

Three words: night vision technology. I think if/when it comes to it, we’ll see many coalition operation being carried out at night to maximize the impact of the technological disparity between the two forces. That’s not to say it won’t be violent, but I think the coalition troops will have a significant advantage.

As for the general reaction of the civilian populus - it could go either way. I think a lot of people will be too scared of the paramilitary forces Hussein has to work with the coalition troops, but hopefully they will at least understand what’s going on and not resist to strongly. I know that’s wishful thinking, but it is possible.