Carter negotiated with NK under Clinton’s direction so this is different in that respect.
I have to believe that President Clinton went over there because of the reporters’ connection to Al Gore (they worked for his Current TV venture) and the current standoff between the US.
Kim Jong’s public disdain for Hillary is just the public face of a policy to move nuclear and missile technology forward. There is no way the current administration can get involved. Having a former president drop by gives the meeting international gravitas without any actual diplomacy involved.
Just for the record, Magiver, are you saying that the current Administration was not involved in planning former President Clinton’s trip and that the trip that resulted in the release of the two journalists involved no diplomacy?
Yes. Otherwise, we would be groveling before a dictator who is thumbing his nose at the world.
Negotions between diplomats.
It looks to me like Al Gore asked Clinton for a favor. Unless Clinton asked President Obama for something shiny to give Kim Jong (in exchange for the reporters) I don’t see where the current administration comes into play.
Magiver, you’re not correct here. It’s all over the news that Clinton delivered a message to Kim from Obama. This was not done in a vacuum. The administration had a hand, probably a guiding hand, in the operation.
Why are conservatives obsessed with what “message” is being sent, but never on the results that are produced? I don’t care if Kim thinks he is pulling one over on us, so long as we achieve the results that are in America’s best interest. If we can achieve peace and prosperity by sacrificing something as nebulous as dignity, I think we have pulled one over on Kim. We have the journalists; he has his thumb up his nose. Actions speak louder than words.
I was nodding as I read, happily agreeing, until I got to the part about the US sacrificing dignity.
I don’t think the US sacrificed any dignity, nebulous or otherwise. We behaved like grown-ups, *and *we got what we want.
I think part of the problem with the last administration was the mindset that something with a positive outcome somehow meant a loss of dignity. What, compromise, diplomacy, dignified reserve … these are all just for “girly-men” now?
I don’t know, though. Not to fault Clinton or Obama overmuch here, but have you ever tried to negotiate with a three year old over bedtime or eating dinner? However they behave you typically don’t look great in the process.
I don’t want to infantilize the North Korean government overmuch here, but dealing with them isn’t like dealing with ordinary countries. They are hypersensitive to slights and compliments alike, so that a minor crime must not only be dealt with harshly but must interfere with any negotiations in progress. Meantime, the country is so isolated that visits from Icelandic trade delegations (or the like) are treated in the North Korean press like major state events.
So yeah, we got what we want. The problem comes when Pyongyang decides they need something else and decides that holding foreigners is the way to get it. And this, remember, is the country that kidnapped a few Japanese just because Kim Jong-il wanted to make some movies.
Remember, I’m not blaming the administration or Clinton, but I do hope that these considerations were weighed before the deal was cut. Because it’s a sure bet the North Koreans weighed them.
And now Kim Jong Il knows how to get attention on the world stage any time he wants. Good on Clinton for having effected a release of the hostages, but this is just rewarding North Korea for bad behavior.
Perhaps Kim just needed some tips on dealing with the ladies. You know, it’s really hard for a busy dictator to meet quality women, but now at DespotDating.com…
Clinton’s looking pretty good right now. Did Bolton’s brand of diplomacy end up making the US look good, or was he too concerned about losing face by negotiating with leaders who might be perceived by some to be ‘three year olds’?
Did we ever get anything we wanted from NK while playing according to the Bush rules of diplomacy?
Of course it was pretty transparent all along that this is what Kim Jong-Il wanted, he wanted people to think that he had the juice to pull in people like Bill Clinton. Of course the people of Korea probably miss the part where he has to keep hostages to get a meeting, as opposed to many wealthy industrialists, and world leaders that just need to call him up and ask him to stop by.
Hint hint. I doubt Obama’s people okayed any apology and I doubt Clinton made one. But it’s unrealistic to think they were not involved at all and that no other issues were discussed. That’s not what the administration is saying, but the fact that they have agreed not to talk about what they talked about does not mean nothing else was discussed.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Clinton made an apology. Why not? What does it hurt. Lie to the little psychopath to get the job done.
It all makes sense if you think of Bill Clinton in the hostage negotiator role and not the diplomat role. Just like the cops will lie to their teeth about concessions they’ll give you if you just give yourself up, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bill Clinton did that too.
So how would you have gotten the hostages out without “rewarding NK” by having a private citizen with no official government role acknowledging them just long to get them out or another costly war? Would spiting NK be worth letting them rot in a labor camp to you?
It’s kind of put down when you think about it. We didn’t even send an ambassador, we just sent a retired guy.
If it’s the guy North Korea wanted, it doesn’t really matter. It’s true that this is a reward for bad behavior, even if the reward is only a photo op for Kim before he kicks off, but it’s the first time Kim’s gotten a reward for psychotic behavior and I don’t know what the alternative solution was in this case.
It has nothing to do with being a conservative or a liberal. We do not negotiate with terrorists (or any other “ists”) in situations that amount to blackmail. Nothing Bill Clinton did represented the United States. This was a function of Al Gore asking him for a favor.
There was certainly contact between President Obama and Former President Clinton as a matter of procedure but not in the sense that anything was given in exchange or directed by the White House.