Seriously though (and I should have a lot more sway with you now that your brains have been eaten), what are we really going to accomplish by simply pulling out? For better or worse, we went in there: we instigated a massive change in this country, tore down every institution that it had. Isn’t it our responsibility to see it through now? To rebuild what we tore down? I certainly think that Iraqis cannot really trust us after this massive PR disaster. But we ARE the real security there now. We are the controlling force that prevents Iraq from turning into… well… what Afghanistan has basically now become after our neglect of it: a mass of tribal grudges and fiefdoms. What better alternative do we have other than staying for as long as it takes to ensure a transition to a better government?
Here’s the OP from my GD thread on this. I’m reproducing some of it here because this seems to be the place where the torture issues are being discussed, and I want some answers about this if anybody’s got 'em. I’m in a real tizzy about this issue because if it’s true, we just pissed off another billion people for absolutely no defensible reason.
Splashed on the front page of the Hindustan Times this morning:
Can this be true? It is certainly plausible that some Indian temporary workers ended up in Iraq; lots of Indians (especially Indian Muslims) get work visas for temporary employment in the Middle East, and the companies that arrange this employment are often pretty unscrupulous, resulting in what’s basically indentured servitude and severe abuses for some Indian employees.
But can the US military have been involved in these sorts of abuses? It’s appalling to think so, and ghod knows this sort of press is the last thing we need right now, inflaming anti-American resentment even in India, which by Asian standards is pretty pro-US. […]
This is what sexism is all about, folks. Torture is designed to make you feel like a woman. As is Islam.
It is my most fervant wish that you’re wrong Kimstu.
But, I’m no longer saying things like “that couldn’t happen, we couldn’t be that stupid”.
I couldn’t possibly answer to all the hysterical shrieks, but your extremely idiotic statement still puzzles me.
‘Free inquiry’ means one can ask any question. How can you maintain that certain questions shouldn’t be asked, because they are contrary to the spirit of ‘free inquiry’?
Why does the US have to be physically present when we are just pissing off the Iraqis? Why couldn’t we ask the UN to take over and foot the bill? Personally, I think the US should totally fund the reconstruction process. We should pour money into that place like there’s no tomorrow. We need to keep at it until every Iraqi has clean water, electricity, telephone, the option for some kind of job training or education, and feel safe to walk the streets. I draw the line at building amusement parks. If the other countries don’t have enough troops, give them more money to recruit.
I mean, for crying out loud, who the hell do we think we are invading another country and leaving it’s infrastructure worse than it was? Who the hell do we think we are that we can impose democracy on another country - but only if they elect the “right” candidates? If they want a theocracy, they should be able to elect one. Maybe if we want Iraq to be an ally we should ask them to hold elections on June 30th and then work for the person elected. Let them know we are there to serve and do it with a smile. I don’t care if makes our economy go belly-up. we need to be held accountable for our actions.
Another thing that freaks me out is that women were involved in the torture. I don’t know why that bothers me so much – I should know by now that anyone is capable of evil under certain conditions but it just still shocks the hell out of me.
An eye for an eye makes the entire world blind.
Quite. We are only talking, though.
“Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words cause permanent damage.”
- Talk Radio
Heh, if anybody in the Midwest is interested, it sounds like Walter Jacobsen on FOX news is going to try and defend the torturers in a few minutes… in the teaser he pondered why anyone would act like they did, and asked something like “could it be because Americans are in danger?” This was a sincere question, but I don’t see the relevance. Likewise, I think they showed footage of the Fallujah rioting over his question, and the rioting that included those mutilations happened after these abuses…
Yeah… that was definitely the worst thing I’ve ever seen on the news. Not just bullshit, TOTAL bullshit, and very misleadingly done, too. (A lot of it was ‘imagine your buddy has just been blown away, and what his kids will think if they see his body hung from a bridge on the evening news’-type stuff.) The idea was basically what the prison guards did was bad, but it’s understandable because things in Iraq are bad, and it rested on the idea that the prisoners knew something related to the insurgency- which we’ve already confirmed most of them they didn’t. Yuck.
How the fuck would you know? You’ve been blinded by hate ever since obviously deffective forceps brought into this world agaisnt your parens will/hope.
In all fairness, somebody was trying to insinuate that Falluja incident was a revenge for this abuses, in the beginning of this very thread. Both sides are prone to wishful thinking.
The problem being that the ‘riots-as-revenge’ idea is at least plausible, while implying that riots in April gave the soldiers good cause for crimes committed in January is just DUMB.
No argument.
Because they aren’t willing to? Did you not notice that the U.N. LEFT the country because it could not ensure its own safety after the major bombing? The nations who are willing to send troops are already there, and some are leaving. Who do you think is going to supply troops in large enough numbers at this point?
We aren’t ever going to be in the business of funding the militaries of other countries. You think any American taxpayer would ever go for that?
Well, in the real world, there is no such thing as “who the hell do we think we are.” We are the people that DID invade, and that’s that. Now comes being realistic about how we are going to make the best of the situation we have.
The shit hasn’t hit the fan here just yet. But that’s probably because the country is going through the final stages of general elections. There have been reports about this topic in the papers here, but nothing on the scale that it deserves.
Turns out it was all no big deal after all:
Sure, I remember getting beaten and ass raped in college: shit that was just all in good fun!
Some of the things done were indeed pretty juvenile. But comparing it to a fraternity hazing is wrong on so many levels:
-these were prisoners, not willing pledges
-these prisoners knew they were under total domination by their captors, they were not boys who know that college justice and police exist if someone goes too far
-they were Muslims, to whom these things are the farthest thing from funny hazing: they are deadly, mortally seriously abhorrent
-and so on, do the math yourself.
I searched the Globe Online for an article that I read over breakfast this morning, but it’s not in their online edition. This seems to be the same article over at the NYT, though. Hayder Sabbar Abd, apparently one of the pictured inmates, talks about his experience in Abu Ghraib.
Well, by golly, New Iskander, it turns out he was one of “Saddam’s henchmen.” At least, he used to serve in the Republican Guard, before he got knocked back to regular army as punishment for desertion. Seems like a human being, for all that.
Of course, you might balk at giving any credence at all to the word of an enemy combatant, but the fellow seems quite credible. He is careful to point out that his general experience of American captivity was as good as captivity can be expected to be, and that he was treated respectfully and humanely – except at Abu Ghraib.
Beaten nearly to death, stripped naked, forced to simulate sex with other men, masturbate for the amusement of Private Lynndie England (Ms. Thumbs-up) and then left to sleep naked and hooded on a wet floor. For ten days.
Some “hazing.” Kappa Kappa Kappa, maybe.