Iskander, George W. Bush and Tony Blair condemned this as well, so I think you’re just a bit off base if you think this is just a ‘lefteous wiseacre’ thing.
When you said that the victims could be guilty, you diminished the crime. You implied that they deserved it, schmuck, and you implied it rather clearly by suggesting it was deserved it if they were part of Saddam’s regime.
We’re not. The point is that regardless of whether the target of this abuse is a serial child rapist or an innocent bystander, we do not have the right to do that sort of thing to him.
The problem is not who we’re doing it to. The problem is that we are doing it. Got it? If we adopt the tactics of the enemy, we lose the moral high ground.
Let me try simpler terms: we are “better” because we don’t do the sort of things Saddam did. If we do the sort of things Saddam did, that means we are not “better”.* Sorry, but we don’t have a moral “Get Out of Jail Free” card just because it’s US; indeed, we have a greater moral responsibility to be on our best behavior. It’s tough being a good guy.
*Disclaimer: “we” in the example given was intended to be general and is not intended as a slur against all Americans or even all members of the US military, the vast majority of whom are decent people really.
While it’s true that New Iskander represents the lowest of human life forms, it’s important to remember that there are many more just like him. They are everywhere. They walk among us. There is no sign of the devil stamped on their forehead. From the outside they are indistinguishable from the rest of us. Some of us may even be New Iskanders without even knowing it. All we need is to be placed in a position of power over people we feel morally superior to.
The people in charge of the Iraqi prisons should know all that, and they should be held to the higest accountability for their lack of oversight.
I just wonder where this will all end.
Apparently Abu Ghraib held some cocked up mixture of petty thieves, terrorists, and actual prisoners of war. The later people should have had been visited by the red cross, just as Saddam has received visits to access his condition. As far as I can tell the red cross was kept out of the loop. At what level was that decision made, and who made it? Their ass needs to be served up on a platter.
Jeezus.
I usually just lurk, but this nasty little scumbag is pushing me into poating.
I think I´ll just quote everybody else.
Miserable little cunt.
you have shown yourself to be such a vile piece of crap with no human compassion that I cannot help but tell you what a fucking twat you are being.
Damn, how can you be so fucking devoid of basic human morality you miserable fucking shit.
I guess now we have found out that there are semi-human cock monkeys like yourself that think it is fine to begin with.
What kind of monster are you that you would advocate that kind of cruelty?
That makes you a hypocrite and an asshole.
No, you sadistic fuck, it means we’re on the side of HUMANITY. WE don’t stoop to the levels of twisted, sadistic bastards like them (and you), because as soon as we do, it makes US no better than them.
you pathetic little toad.
I need to take a shower.
Not quoting any more. I agree with all the above, and if I were more eloquent right now (just got off a ten hour bus ride) I would add a lot more of my own.
New Iskander, you make me sick.
New Isklander,
To play your game and follow your logic, how do you know that some of those who were killed in the 9/11 attack weren’t guilty of henious crimes and deserved to die?
I’ve said this in many threads of other subjects: the capacity to commit evil acts upon others is part of the human nature that we all share. We all have the potential given the “right” circumstances.
A US response that amounts to treating this as the military self-policing the actions of a few “bad” people will be forthcoming and is woefully inadequate. This is a result of too much power and too little oversight and bankrupt leadership. I’m with the others of this thread who have previously thought that we had a moral and ethical obligation to see Iraq through to some stable and human rights respecting conclusion. Now I’m not sure that we are capable of that task …
That´s posting. I don´t know what poating is, but it sounds like fun.
Defense?, nah, that´s not enough, you condone and encourage such behaviour.
A whole lot worse?, what could that be?, throwing them into a plastic shredder perhaps?
But they deserved to be tortured anyway, right?
Except that 60% of innocent inmates.
There are always, and everywhere, people who volunteer for deporting, torturing, executing anybody as soon as they’re told they are “evil” people who deserve it. Sometimes, I think about this while looking at people and wonder how many amongst them would happily become a camp guard or torturer in we were in a situation like in Bosnia, Rwanda, etc…
I couldn’t help thinking, when I read this thread that ** Iskander ** would be amongst those. It has been demonstrted many times that even people who would never think about harming anybody in unsual circumstances can become such murderers. What then, with people who, even in normal circumstances try to find excuses for torturers, are inclined to think that if the person is possibly guilty, it’s a good enough reason for not condemning the assholes, and finally state they would like people they think are criminal to be sadisticaly tortured.
Not only your statements are disgusting, ** Iskander ** , but you seem to be completely off-base. Off-base because you believe that people condemn such actions only for partisan reasons. IOW, you believe that these people wouldn’t be disturbed by these acts if they didn’t furthered their agenda. That they would ignore them. It tells a lot about you, ** Iskander ** if you believe that the main reason people state their disgust is their political stance. You apparently don’t even realize that most people are decent. That most people are genuinely revolted by the crimes we are talking about. I’m not sure what your perception of the world is, but it must be dark, very dark, inside.
I wanted to add that ** Iskander ** comments are for me the second most offensive statements I’ve read on this board. And I read a lot of crap, over the last years.
The second-most offensive? Come on, don’t leave us hanging like that.
It wasn’t you, Elvis. Not sure of that, of course, but its a pretty good bet.
Say, speaking of obnoxious, is friend Scylla over the River Charon?
When ‘elucidator’ is saying, “Throw Kissinger to the Kurds!” to serve Justice, nobody minds.
If I were to say, “I wish Bin Laden and his henchmen were put in airplane and smashed against his bunker” to serve Justice, would anyone mind?
Exactly what I said:
For saying that I was immediately called
and
.It went downhill from there.
My question was simple, “Wouldn’t that be the real Justice?”
The answer should be also simple.
Instead, I am being called names.
Why?
It’s not what I said about Saddam that makes you enraged, it’ s because I offered a different look at the situation. You had a nice little orthodoxy going, flinging shit at Bush, as usual. That new look produced a certain conflict in your minds that you can’t resolve, so you scream obscenities.
I think that looking at these pictures produced a certain conflict in your mind that you can’t resolve, because you desperately wish you could have been participating in these screaming obscenities. Probably those with the women involved. It must be really sad for you to see Iraqi and above that also Muslim women forced to suck other men then you.
Salaam. A
Post a link; I’ll go over there and complain too.
Of course – how foolish of us to overestimate your level of reading comprehension.
The answer is “no”. Simple enough for you?
See what I mean about the reading comprehension thing?
And apparently you read minds now too.
I don’t think many people will argue that your outlook is different from that of other people.
Ah – the “You’re only persecuting me because you know I’m right” speech. Good choice – it’s a classic. Delusional and sad, but a classic nonetheless.
I await the inevitable next response, O Speaker of Truth.
Because that would NOT be the real justice. If you believe in torturing a captive, then it would be your version of real justice, just not the kind subscribed to by the majority of the civilized world.
I hope that when you see pictures of captured US sevicemen and women in the future with a broomstick up their ass, or with electric wires attached, you remember this thread.
“Real justice” trumps all. :o
Because you sound like a primitive, bloodthirsty putz. Do you not understand why people are taking your words in this manner, or do you just think torture and rape is OK if it happens to the right people?
Let’s try a different path here. The idea that Saddam and his cohorts deserve that kind of treatment isn’t so outlandish (although the photos make it clear Saddam isn’t in there, and his henchmen would be being interrogated, not at a normal prison). The idea that because we have moral superiority, it’s okay for us to do the torturing is, um, problematic to say the least. Either you torture people or you don’t, and there’s no rationalization that makes it alright. Dig?
You’ll notice, clairobscur, that New Iskander has not attempted to respond to your most excellent post. Excellent writing - I might even say profound.
I could bet my wig that he´s talking about this big pile of crap
It’s Saturday. The story broke Wednesday. The US govenment knew the story was going to break some days before. They knew the pictures existed months ago.
The US had one shot at a half-way decent counter story to the scandal running now – if they could show every one of those grinning American faces from the abuse photos in a different set of photes, ones with the American soldiers in prison garb in holding cells. Those soldiers should have been arrested and detained pending court martial. Jeez, even if some lawyers could get them out again in a couple of days, there would have been images showing the serious consequences of their acts.
They blew it. It’s nearly unbelieveable that, even today, AFAI can tell:
No Americans have been arrested
No Americans have been detained
of the 6 soldiers under investigation, only three have completed what CBS News calls “the military equivalent if a grand jury hearing.” That is updated from a story posted earlier today saying there had been no official court martial proceedings at all, merely investigative reports recommending them.
Aside from the human tragedy, which I don’t discount, even as theater the US is terribly mishandling this.