US Soldiers killing Afghani civilians.

What should be done in cases of US soldiers killing Afghani civilians? Should the US turn soldiers like this over to the Afghan government for a trial and sentencing, or should the US military handle his punishment? I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, he committed a crime against Afghan citizens on Afghan soil under the jurisdiction of Afghan law. I can’t see how refusing to turn him over to Afghanistan could possibly be defensible. On the other hand, we don’t want a kangaroo circus court dragging an American soldier (even if he’s guilty) on an execution parade, serving as a focal point for the anti-American movement.

What’s the best way to be sure that this soldier is sentenced appropriately and justice is served? What about in other cases of abuse by US soldiers?

He should be tried according to the UCMJ and, if found guilty, penalized accordingly.
It is important to me, if to nobody else, that any execution should be by hanging or other means traditionally held dishonorable amongst the fellowship of soldiers.

He should be tried by a military court but at the same time they should indeed must not go easy on him if convicted nor should he be pardoned or commuted regardless of public opinion.

He’s in Afghanistan but he’s subject to the UCMJ rather than the Afghan authorities.

If he’s guilty of these crimes, he should be given the death penalty. If what is alleged of him is true, there’s no excuse for an American soldier to act in such a manner.

U.S. law requires he be tried by a military court, the U.S. military does not operate anywhere in the world in which it is required to hand over its soldiers to local authorities.

In certain countries (I know Japan for one), the U.S. military has the option to release soldiers to the local authorities for certain charges. In practice it is not done all that often because UCMJ punishment for the sort of crimes that happen with soldiers in those areas is typically harsher than that of the host country and if someone is going to be in prison for 10-20 years the host country is happy to have our taxpayers feeding them instead of theirs.

I see absolutely nothing indefensible about this, in general most countries take the position that their criminals should be tried by their laws and with their legal protections. It is under this logic that France will not ever extradite one of their citizens, even one who murders 50 people in the United States and then escapes back home to France. They will be tried in a French court under French law, under the theory that any person whom their government has possession of must be tried by their government. Since we effectively have physical control of our soldiers and physical possession of them, U.S. law is really the only appropriate option.

Especially since our troops operate in bases in some countries where women are flogged for driving cars, television personalities are executed for practicing witchcraft and et cetera. There is little reason we should want our people being subject to those sort of legal systems.

Finally, in the recent specific case public outrage will be great, and we cannot trust the Afghan court system to be anything other than a kangaroo court to condemn the soldier in question. The actual truth of the matter is this soldier was almost certainly insane and suffering from serious mental incompetency.

Most people that go on these rampage killings are probably not mentally well, but typically in America they do not receive a judgment of “not guilty by reason of insanity” because of the public outrage. The truth of the matter is more of these people should receive sentences like that, there has been lots of outrage in Norway over the Utoya murderer being judged not fit to stand trial, but in truth from a moral perspective I’m not sure it is right to subject that guy to the criminal court system.

Likewise, the Tucson shooter (Jared Loughner) is widely acknowledged as not being fit to stand trial, and is going to be forcibly medicated so they can try him and convict him. I think if you need to forcibly medicate someone to stand trial the place for them is a secured psychiatric facility, not a prison.

That’s probably where this soldier should end up, but the truth is in neither the Afghan or American court system will he end up there–because of the public outrage he’ll almost certainly end up in the prison population and potentially on military death row.

LOL.

Next question.

Do you think that’s the way it ought to be? Do you think this soldier is likely to receive a just sentence if he’s tried by the US military?

I’m reading this as “we should laugh at mass murder.” Is that what you meant?

I mean psychological reports > 3 months somewhere out of the spotlight > home to family.

Seems plausible, given the precedent.

From that link:

Coming up after the break … Latest US President to lecture Chinese leaders on Human Rights.

And well he should, in China there is a very common practice of basically enacting the very harshest punishments with extreme swiftness on people that “embarrass the state.”

For example factories that essentially enslave people to work in them are not totally uncommon in parts of China. When a brick factory was exposed as doing this in the Western press some of the people involved were sentenced to death and executed within weeks.

This is exactly what should not happen, individuals should not receive harsher punishment because their offense embarrasses the government.

Barack Obama has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of in regards to human rights when it comes to the Haditha case. A court made a ruling and President Obama respected that ruling.

That’s the tough pill to swallow of real human rights and real freedom: it applies even when you don’t feel it should on a personal level. To step away from the extreme taint of politics that brings out the maximum craziness on these boards when talking about the U.S. military, let’s remember the O.J. Simpson trial. It’s a situation where the U.S. court system almost certainly failed to convict a murderer. That is part of a real court system, sometimes people who deserve to go to prison do not go to prison.

The alternative that you guys may be suggesting (and perhaps inadvertently) is a system in which the President personally makes sure any soldier who is charged with a war crime is convicted and executed, regardless of what a court may think because that is the “right thing to do.” To me, that is a far worse thing than what this soldier did in Afghanistan. This soldier committed murder, but if we were to just “insure” he himself were put to death that would be a crime against the very fabric of American society, a far worse thing than a simple violent act by either a mad man or a simple homicidal monster.

I always find it interesting, liberals are typically soft on domestic criminals. They roll their eyes at conservatives who mutter about how someone ought to “take care” of bad guys who beat the rap. But when a soldier who is accused of a crime “beats the rap” it’s a sign that America is the worst country in the world, that our military justice system is irredeemably corrupt and etc.

I’ll tell you this though, as someone who was in the military I don’t remember anyone I ever met who would prefer a courts-martial to a civilian criminal court. Personally the only reason I might prefer a courts-martial is the JAG attorneys they provide for you (IMO) are better than some places public defenders (but I won’t insult all public defenders, just in some places I know they aren’t great), but I do not know that that is a very strong counterbalance to the disadvantages: being tried not by a jury of civilians but of military officers who are not prone to give much leniency to a soldier and who are not prone to care about emotional appeals like some suburban soccer moms might be, being tried under a criminal code that criminalizes things that are not offenses at all in the civilian world and etc.

Anyway, just last year we sentenced a soldier to life in prison for a murder committed against a civilian overseas: link, that’s exactly what a real criminal court system and not a kangaroo court system, looks like. Some people get punished, some do not.

I don’t think he should be sentenced to death by any court, nor should he be detained without trial. He should be subject to a trial of his peers. I’m not a fan of US extradition laws though.

I also think that there is nowhere in the world that is outside US military jurisdiction.

I think Wuterich is a more accurate comparison than Loughner. Combination of personality and circumstance.

and from another thread,

I don’t really hold these as disprovable. It’s a paradox of sorts: I don’t think there is a standard by which one can say a sane person will commit mass murder. I don’t have any problem coming to a situational conclusion and removing punitive measures from the judgement. That doesn’t mean that the individuals responsible for the murders shouldn’t be isolated from society, nor that one shouldn’t investigate the situation in an attempt to prevent another similar occurrence (for example, if they shared personality characteristics and were put on long shifts, or had expressed distress and were not temporarily relieved, or any number of factors).

There are professionals I trust to ascertain whether someone is mentally ill. A lot of people complained when Reagan’s shooter ended up in a mental hospital instead of a prison, but by and large that has shown itself to be the correct move. Further, it proved itself to not be a “slap on the wrist” or “getting off”, Hinckley spent the next 20 years in conditions virtually indistinguishable from being incarcerated except for the fact he received genuine psychiatric treatment. Unfortunately the outrage over Hinckley lead to laws being passed at the Federal and State level which made the insanity defense much harder to use (and it was used in less than 2% of cases prior to those laws, and successfully in only 25% of the cases in which it was used–classic case of politicians creating legislation to solve a non-existent problem.)

I don’t even know the name of the guy who killed the 16 civilians in Afghanistan or anything about him, he may end up being a psychotic person or he may just be a murdering bastard–that should be what a court and court approved professionals decide. If he’s genuinely mentally unfit I hope he does not go to prison.

There’s all sorts of situations where a sane person will commit mass murder; “sane” and “good person” are not synonyms. Some drug cartel thugs massacring entire families to “send a message” to a rival cartel or to terrorize people into submission aren’t insane, just evil. Or someone murdering all of their rivals to a throne or a fortune, or killing everyone in the room because they are witnesses, or killing everyone in a village because their commander told them too; they are all bad people, but generally not insane ones.

For the first question, yes. As for the second, I don’t know.

“Ditto”

Here’s a precedent from 1968:

The My Lai Massacre was the Vietnam War mass murder of between 347 and 504 unarmed civilians in South Vietnam on March 16, 1968, by United States Army soldiers of “Charlie” Company of 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade of the Americal Division. Most of the victims were women, children (including babies), and elderly people. Some of the bodies were later found to be mutilated. While 26 US soldiers were initially charged with criminal offenses for their actions at Mỹ Lai, only Second Lieutenant William Calley, a platoon leader in Charlie Company, was convicted. Found guilty of killing 22 villagers, he was originally given a life sentence, but only served three and a half years under house arrest.

When the incident became public knowledge in 1969, it prompted widespread outrage around the world. The massacre also increased domestic opposition to the US involvement in the Vietnam War. Three US servicemen who had tried to halt the massacre and protect the wounded were later denounced by several US Congressmen. They received hate mail and death threats and found mutilated animals on their doorsteps…

Is there any example of a US soldier being sent to jail for killing civilians?

I’ve already cited one in this thread glee, I’m assuming you did not read it.