I am truly disgusted with this. American forces are employing punitive tactics which are unacceptable to any moral or civilized person. Punishing populations just in sheer frustration that they are not winning the war. This is unacceptable to decent people anywhere and any idiot knows this type of thing will only generate more opposition to the USA in Iraq and around the world.
Destruction of property in reprisals and punishment of whole groups of people. It would be sickening in any case but the fact that it is being done by the US makes it so much worse. It is a black mark and I am afraid things can get worse. This is a spiral which has no end in sight.
Like Guantanamo has been condemned by every civilized country, so should these actions be condemned. They have no place in a civilized society. They are barbaric and have to be stopped.
If the entire population of the entire town is so dead set against the occupation maybe the Americans should just get the fuck out of there because punishing entire populations is just not acceptable. Just a thought.
sailor, I sincerely hope someone comes in here and proves you entirely wrong, down to the merest detail.
As I said in the other thread, I am very troubled by the word “including” in the phrase “…including houses of individuals believed to be involved in the shooting …” This cannot be interpreted to mean anything else but that the homes of innocent persons were also forfeit.
Even if it were not immoral and uncivilized…and it is…it also awesomely stupid. Unless theres a bigger adjective than “awesomely”.
Frankly, I would feel better if this turned out to be black propaganda spread by America’s enemies, without a word of truth to it.
Nothing personal, sailor, but I really hope you’re full of it.
Of course I would feel much better if this were not happening but just wishing it would not happen is not going to change anything. Do you have any reason to doubt the sources? I have seen it independently reported (in worse terms I might add) by the Spanish media. The articles include very specific names of places, persons and events. Don’t you think that if this were not true it would be extremely easy to disprove? If they turn out to be false those responsible should hang by the balls but, sadly, all the evidence so far leads me to believe the US command has truly lost it and are just lashing out in blind rage caused by their frustration.
>> Nothing personal, sailor, but I really hope you’re full of it.
WTF does that mean? I am repeating the news. I am not personally vouching for anything. I have not seen it happen. If the news turns out to be false I will have been mislead but the multiple sources all appear reliable and it all matches the direction events have been taking. It’s not like it comes out of nowhere. I’ll be the first one glad to know it is not really happening but I don’t have much hope. Do you have good reasons to believe it is false?
Whats even more troubling is the silence in response. I want to see a ferocious denial, vociferous, outraged. I want to know that we still recognize bestial behavior for what it is, that we would be shocked to be accused of, much less be guilty of committing.
We’re the Americans, we don’t do that sort of thing. “Reprisals” are part of the repetoire of thugs and tyrants. Sure as Hell isn’t the action of a “liberator”. And when I’m done being mad about how wrong it is, I’ll start in being mad about how goddam mutherfucking brain-dead stupid!!…
(Just so I’m entirely clear…there is zero intention to “dis” friend sailor. I just hope he’s wrong. I rather doubt it…)
As I’ve said in GD, Bush has to do just this if he’s to gain negotiating leverage with Europe and the UN; no way are they even going to contemplate getting him off that hook unless he looks to be getting a somewhat better degree of control. Then it’ll be their turn to worry
He’ll be working on that leverage for a while yet, though; lots more suppression to come! Not to mention the diplomatic bluffs and double-bluffs.
I’m guessing the ideal deal he’ll be hoping to get is: US keeps control of oil, pipes, refineries, etc., UN does the wider nation building in conjunction with the US stooges. Most troops and all reservists home for July and the Victory Parade in October.
What happens if this backfires is pretty unknowable, imho. I guess it gets left to the Democrat president.
Fwiw, I think this is probably good news in the sense that it speeds up the general process and makes it more likely the UN will be in situ comfortably nbefore next July. Better for the whole nation building thing, imho.
And while I’m typing this out, Fox News is talking about the new “get tough” policy. How if the Iraqis being raided give up thier weapons, they will be dealt with leniently, but they could get a sentence of 15 years in prison if thier caught with one.
When did we start passing laws in Iraq?
And the ghastly irony of all ironies is I can hear the voices of Tighty Rightie paranoids nattering on about “Well, you know, when tyrants want to set up dictatorships, the first thing they do is round up all the guns!”
And doesn’t everybody an his cousing own a gun in Iraq? Last I heard, they had more guns per capita than Dallas!
Yes, indeed!! Now, if we were forced to choose between the Grizzly Win Mag or the semi-automatic rifle - we’ll, we’d be hard pressed to make that decision.
Well, down in Waco we never went in for the fancier weapons. Just wanted to be sure we had something with enough “stopping power”, in case we get ambushed by a wooly mammoth.
It’s just like I’ve always said - put any army in the world in a situation like we’re dealing with in the Territories, and it’ll end up acting as bad as we are, if not worse. I mean, you Americans have been there for what, nine months, and you’re already acting like Givati in the Nablus casba! At least with us, it took over 30 years to get that far.
And all this before Iraqis start blowing themselves up in American cities. I shudder to thing how the U.S. military will act when THAT starts to happen.
(Shrug) Exactly as I expected. Dunno why this comes as a surprise to anyone.
A military dictatorship is a military dictatorship. Some are more benevolent than others, but at the end of the day, they get things done by shooting people and forcing the issue with tanks and barbed wire. What didja all expect, anyway?
There is a some exaggeration going on here. Tikrit is not “just like Gaza” Although ID cards are required for residents to move in and out of the are, they are allowed to move in and out of the area. The Tikrit area is almost certainly where Saddam is hiding and US soldiers would very much like to catch him. Saddam’s hometown area benefitted from his rule while other Iraqis were starved, tortured, and being gassed. While this makes no excuse for any unprofessional behavior towards its residents, it should be kept in mind just why many of the residents are unhappy. The Sunnis are not going to benefit from democracy in Iraq where Shia are the majority.
Good thing the US did it and not Baathists cooperating with Islamic terrorists, otherwise we’d have to reassess our whole outrage situation. Sailor just hates America.
Now that’s funny. The Tikrit area seems to have been walled-up, fortified, self-contained etc. for a long time.
“He built two palaces, the largest a sand-coloured riot of pillars, domes and colonnades. It boasts the colonnades of Buckingham Palace, the domes of a great mosque and the faintly sinister, hunched appearance of a nuclear bunker. Miles of razor wire surround this temple of self-glorification.” http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/10/1049567808457.html
“Still a narrow-laned, grimy town, Tikrit today is home to massive compounds for Saddam and his family. Double layers of walls with razor wire and guard towers ring one sprawling compound, part palace and part medieval fort.” http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2002/10/16/f171.raw.html
Razor wire is fine if you want to keep the unsavory elements out, you see, and that’s pretty much what the villagers say here:
What would really be “fair” is if we took all the stuff down and let Saddam’s relatives fend for themselves.
But, enough about me. This thread is not about me, it is about the news reported by several agencies and media of the barbarities being committed in Iraq by US forces. You have anything to say about that? Or the best you can do is attack me for reporting it?
By the way, I am not French (not that it would make any difference, I have lived in several countries and consider myself a citizen of the world) and I do not hate America. The reason I condemn these things is precisely because this is no supposed to be the kind of thing America does nor the kind of thing any civilized country should condone.
I do not hate any country or any people. My allegiance is not to any country but to some basic principles. I believe humans are pretty much the same everywhere and I believe in Human Rights for all. I also believe in freedom and human dignity and similar things which the USA and western countries are supposed to stand for. When the USA stands for that I am proud to defend her and I have done so around the world for many years in the face of many anti-American expressions. I hope the day can come soon when I can defend the actions of the government of the USA but what they are doing now is indefensible.
My quarrel is not with the USA nor with the people of the USA. It is with very specific actions of the government. I condemn them as I think most Americans do too.
Well perhaps you could better explain why controlling the flow of people into and out of an area where Saddam is known to be hiding is barbaric? Saddam’s method of dealing with an insurgency would have been to level the entire town or village or perhaps just to gas it. I don’t think the US really has this “barbarity” thing down yet.
