I’d be interested in more information on this, since “Raiders of the Lost Ark” came out in 1981.
Rich
Fust FTR, I was not offended by the words in that post.
Words don’t hurt me. Intentions can eventually hurt me. Deeds most certaiinly can hurt me. But I’ve never met a word that hurt me.
The reason that offensive speech is not outlawed is because if people are not allowed to express themselves verbally, they may resort to expressing themselves violently. It’s what the Revolution in 1776 was all about, you know. The Colonists had no right to complain to the King about his policies.
OTOH, the right to speak your mind does not come with a guarantee that anyone will listen or agree.
And I agree it’s no fun getting your feelings hurt, but it’s better than a bullet in the brain.
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. Georges Santayana
‘Words don’t hurt me’
Surely you jest.
I don’t think the OP was as much about the term being offensive as it was it about it being an overkill.
I call people nazi-bastards all the time, as a joke. But it’s ridiculous when people use it seriously. For example there’s some event or other in Quebecois politics which seperatists call the “night of the long knives”. I don’t really know what this event is because Quebecois politics are boring and irrelevant and I refuse to acknowledge them but I really doubt anyone went on a killing spree.
handy:
No, I don’t jest. And don’t call me Shirley.
Words may annoy me, and make me either cringe so much I shut the TV off in disgust (like whenever I tune into Springer by mistake), or compell me to come up with words of my own to counter words I don’t believe in.
But I have yet to have to put a claim in with my medical insurer saying that an emergency room visit, perscription or teeth cleaning is because someone threw some words my way.
Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, and Himmler are all out on a driving tour through rural Germany in late 1943. The countryside is refeshing after the smouldering ruins of the cities, but there are shortages everywhere of everything.
Suddenly, as they round a corner, a pig dashes out in front of the car and is killed. Hitler stands up and yells, “Stop the car!” They screech to a halt and Hitler glares at the group and says, “Okay, somebody’s got to go tell this farmer we killed his pig. Now who’s it going to be?”
Goebbels leaps to his feet and says, "Mein Fuhrer, let me go. As Minister of Propaganda, I can put a good spin on it for you." Hitler tells him to go ahead, and Goebbels goes up to the farmhouse.
A few minutes later, Goebbels is back with a bewildered expression on his face and a huge wicker basket in his arms. In the basket are loaves of bread, huge sausages, packs of cigarettes, imported chocolates----all sorts of things that simply can’t be had any more, and that the farmer and his wife must have been hoarding for years.
“What’s all this?” Hitler demands.
"I…I don’t know, Fuhrer," Goebbels stammers. “The man just gave it to me.”
“What did you say to him?” Hitler asks.
“I went up and knocked on the door,” Goebbels explains. “The farmer came to the door, and I said, ‘Heil Hitler! The pig is dead!’”
(Actual German World War II joke…obviously not shared in the presence of any top Nazi officials, of course…)
This would be easily explained by the fact I meant to type an 8 instead of a 7. I read it a book called Murphy’s Rules (the first edition) which is a collection of silly rules and bloopers from various games published by Steve Jackson Games (which included examples from their own products). I believe the company was TSR Inc., but as I was writing from memory I could be wrong.
Another cultural difference here…
I’m from The Netherlands, and I can assure you that Nazi-analogies ouside of the appropriate historical context are taken with great offence over here. Which, I hope, is understandable to everyone on this board.
But I also see why the same analogies might have less revolting connotations when applied in different cultures, countries, etc. But my advice would be: be really careful when using the term - it’s a powerful one.
Coldfire
“You know how complex women are”
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
Yes, European peasant culture is quite different than Americanism, which is part of why a Hitler was able to come into being in the first place. Even when royalty was deposed, the bums were often left to live in royal exile, while here, fallen politicians are sent off to the slammer.
The only reason Hitler is still a powerful symbol is because you make him so, sez me. He’s just a pathetic rotting corpse. (Well, actually he’s just some bones in a sewer. 'Sorry I don’t have that link.)
In America, we (the sharp, with-it SD readers anyway) care more about ideas than celebrities. Hmm, looking back over that, I’d be hard pressed to prove that. Well, that’s one of the fundamental ideas of America anyway, whether the hoi polloi belie what I say or not.
Putrid says:
" Yes, European peasant culture is quite different than Americanism, which is part of why a Hitler was able to come into being in the first place. Even when royalty was deposed, the bums were often left to live in royal exile, while here, fallen politicians are sent off to the slammer. "
If it’s a joke, it’s a bad one.
If you’re serious, you’re both incoherent and historically impaired.
Meaning:
a) I fail to see what royalty has to do with the rise of Hitler, and:
b) we COULD start a list of all but forgotten atrocities in American History.
But you’d probably blame those on the European peasants too, if your post was a serious one…
Coldfire
“You know how complex women are”
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
Well, I always blame atrocities in the U.S. on European peasants, but then I get all guilt-ridden about being descended from European peasants.
I have no idea where the royalty thing comes in, either. We couldn’t convict Clinton for morals charges and we couldn’t even get an indictment on Reagan for his antics in Central America (or Bush for his trumped up invasion of Panama), so I’m not sure where we have sent any politicians to the slammer. (Even if you limit it to “fallen” politicians, I having trouble remembering where Nixon served his time. Oh! Yeah. In the notorious penal colony at San Clemente.)
Tom~
Well, I don’t know about you lot but I write these things on the fly. Sorry for completely changing the direction of my post in mid-sentence. I stand completely behind the beginning of what I wrote but that had nothing to do with Hitler. Then I got bored with royalty.
There are plenty of modern examples of rulers going unpunished into exile but actually I was referring to the past European days of most of our ancestors (even for many Americans.) But dagnabbit even now I can’t remember exactly what I am replying to. I guess I ought to open two windows at a time, eh?
So I guess this means you can’t all read my mind yet? Well, now I haven’t answered anything or even made my original case. I’ll have to get back after work.
After I sent that off, I reread it and wondered if anyone’d call me on my jumping around. If in the future something I write seems not to make sense, just keep in mind that I have wonderful logic behind everything I write. It simply doesn’t always make it to the board.
Thanks for stating the circumstances of your error. Now please try and correct it.
Coldfire
“You know how complex women are”
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
Please note: My objection to the word “Nazi” HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the the term being “offensive.” My objection is that the accusation of Nazism is used in frivilous situations, and ultimately trivializes serious topics.
Someone asked (facetiously) whether I object to “inquisition”, too. Same point – I’m not objecting to the word “inquisition”, I’m objecting to its use in a trivial situation. The teacher asks you about why your homework is late, that’s NOT an inquisition. The teacher puts thumbscrews on you and torments you on the rack and asks questions about your homework, THAT’s an inquisition.
It’s like people saying, “I’d rather die than be seen in a dress like that.” They don’t mean it – it’s trivializing death.
We live in an age of hyperbole. “The death of JFK Jr is the worst tragedy America has known.” “This new movie is that most exciting, scariest, most shocking movie ever made.”
The overuse of terms is, IMHO, like the story of the boy who cried wolf. If every little shadow and every little wind is greeted by the cry “WOLF!” then when the real wolf shows up, we’ve got no way to call attention to it.
WOLF!
No, really.
I’m not kidding this time.
Europe has a long history of royalty in power. Some of those lines have been ended entirely. Others have been turned into constitutional monarchies. There is a long, ingrained tradition of commonfolk respecting royalty and nobility, whether or not they are ruling.
The U.S. has a (shorter) history of disrespecting royalty and nobility. You don’t see us worshipping a Roosevelt. Oops, bad example. You don’t hear people here periodically suggesting that one particular family be officially made our royalty. Oops, bad example.
Hitler wasn’t the equivalent of old-style royalty? He sure was. The German people’s treatment of Hitler wasn’t affected by their royal past? It sure was. Hitler being now looked upon as a powerful term in the Netherlands isn’t affected by the Dutch royal tradition? I say it sure is.
As was said, we have cultural differences. Apparently it is assumed by some that they are coincidental. They are not. They are rooted in the basically different way we look at our governments.
A line in a response to my convoluted post has me confused. Do today’s Europeans really not hold the German peasants (of the time) responsible for putting Hitler into power? If so, I just don’t get that. If not, then you seem to be agreeing with me. Yet you go from there to assigning magical powers to Hitler’s name.
As for Dex’s way of looking at things, I don’t agree with that either. I think I’m repeating someone else’s line but that’s how metaphors work. They always exagerate. You don’t compare a football game to a basketball game or to a day in the park; you compare it to a battle.
Sure, trivializations soften the language. Sure, it’s annoying to hear Madison Avenue’s spin on each little product and know that those little lies are inuring the populace to more important lies (such as those from Hitler wannabes.) But I can’t help noticing that nazi is the term which brought this up. To me, that means it does have something to do with that term being offensive.
Obviously quite a number of us look at things entirely differently (and others, partially differently.) I personally think that the best way to keep the memory of Hitler and naziism alive and looked at from the best perspective is to use the terms a lot unflatteringly in mundane situations. Others seem to think the terms should be treated as arcane symbols and treated properly with only the greatest of negative honor and negative respect. Ugh.
Putrid said:
" Hitler wasn’t the equivalent of old-style royalty? He sure was. The German people’s treatment of Hitler wasn’t affected by their royal past? It sure was. Hitler being now looked upon as a powerful term in the Netherlands isn’t affected by the Dutch royal tradition? I say it sure is. "
Germany as such was never a kingdom, although some of the former freestates were. So you’re basically saying that the German people easily accepted Hitler because they were used to being oppressed by ‘old-style royalty’ (whatever that is, since countries have always varied widely regarding the power of their royal family, the aggressiveness towards the surrounding countries, etc.) ?
Have you ever heard of the crisis, and the wide-spread unemployment that it gave the world and Germany especially ? Hitler just stood up and gave easy scapegoating answers to questions the average German labourer didn’t have the answers to in the first place. That’s all, and the rest is (horrifying) history.
As to The Netherlands: had we been a republic, you really think the name Hitler would have had a LESS negative connotation over here now, ceterus paribus ? Please tell me I’m misinterpreting things… it just sounds way too stupid, and you DO seem smart enough.
" A line in a response to my convoluted post has me confused. Do today’s Europeans really not hold the German peasants (of the time) responsible for putting Hitler into power? If so, I just don’t get that. If not, then you seem to be agreeing with me. Yet you go from there to assigning magical powers to Hitler’s name. "
Yes, the population of Germany AT THE TIME is to blame for accepting a leader like Hitler (not the current generation, but that goes without saying). Furthermore, I don’t really think this part of your response refers to me, does it ? I never said anything about ‘magical powers’. I just mentioned the VERY negative connotation the name Hitler has in a country that suffered incredibly under his occupation. Nothing weird there, says me.
Coldfire
“You know how complex women are”
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
We’re obviously never gonna agree on this but I’ll answer your questions.
Yes, to what you say I was saying. Sure I was generalizing. My point wasn’t that a royal past created Hitler.
Do I really believe that a Netherlands with no royal history would look at Hitler differently than it does now? Yeah, I do. Of course I could never prove that, and of course such a country wouldn’t be the Netherlands.
I guess another way of putting your question would be, “If the US had been invaded by Germany in WWII, would we look at Hitler the same way we do now or would we look at him the way the Dutch do?” (That of course requires you accept my premise that Americans do look at Hitler differently than Europeans and this isn’t all just me.) I would still think that we would look at Hitler and naziism differently. But I certainly could never prove that either. I do not see why my thinking a country’s fundamental past affects its outlook on dictators sounds stupid.
No, I was not limiting my response to only Coldfire but, yes, I do consider warning against a term’s power and negative connotation to be ipso facto ascribing magical power (in a metaphorical sense) to it. I do not see anything weird about the Netherlands. I simply see thinking there I disagree with.
Please allow me to share something from my most recent (and, as of now, still posted) Mailbag answer: