Utah teachers allowed to carry concealed guns in classrooms - Is this a good idea?

Great Debates
41

You asked for an explaination. I gave you one.

For people who handle guns professionally, it doesn’t really
say much when they have one on their person the rest of the time as well. Police officers, for instance.

By your user name, I presume that you are a military (or ex?), which puts you in a grey area, because soldiers have to know how to use weapons, but most don’t walk around with one all of the time as part of their day job.

So, If I know that you are military or a soldier, the fact that you carry a weapon in to places where a weapon isn’t needed is probably just habit. (I know that it’s a place where a weapon isn’t needed because I’m there, and I don’t have any reason to be where a weapon is needed).

The think is, if I don’t know you, then the fact that you have a weapon where one isn’t needed tells me that you are either an officer off duty, or a fearful person. I don’t know which. It’s not that I think you are a psycho, but that I don’t know that you aren’t, So I have a suspicion that you you are one of the ones who has a gun out of fear rather than out of duty.

And I know that fearful people are the dangerous ones. And you just made sure that if there is any danger, it’s going to be deadly danger. You just upped the stakes.

I could get a gun if I wanted to, but I don’t feel the need. Does that sound like fear to you? No, the fearful people are the ones who carry ‘for protection’ who don’t have a job that makes them everyone’s protector.

Oh, and don’t think I’m afraid of guns. I do hunt deer, though not, of course with a concealed handgun ;), and I never forget that I have a deadly weapon in my hands while I’m hunting.

42

If there’s a shooting, the kids are either down on the ground, or running away from the shooter. There isn’t a lot of cross-traffic that would get in the way of an armed person trying to shoot the person. They don’t run around in circles mindlessly like a bad action movie.

I don’t think allowing CCW-holders to carry in schools would really affect the risk or security much either way, really. There might be a chance of missing and hitting an innocent person, but it’s pretty small. There’s also the chance that having an armed teacher could stop a school shooting early, but it’s also small.

In some states, that is. And some states allow it already.

Does that mean I’m “fearful” every time I get in a car and put on the seatbelt, because I’m taking a precaution to protect myself against an event that is unlikely to happen?

43

Fantastic. How long until a student is shot while reaching for his cell phone?

44

Or you live in a state that just made a decision on its legality.

45

And when we get that darned wish machine to work, we’ll only ever have exactly what we need exactly when we need it. Until such time, we have to carry stuff around we may not need so that it will be there when we need it, like aspirin, car insurance, and where it is legal and the person desires it, handguns.

There are more types than people in abject fear of existence and off-duty police officers. I suggest expanding your horizons, honestly.

Ahh, the difference between a two foot plastic slide and a roller coaster comes into realization. Driving 70 versus 25.

And when “there exists some people whose job it is to protect” actually manifests itself as “you will always be protected” your dichotomy might become more appropriate.

Great, so you’ve escalated the gathering of food to be a deadly operation. Why not just garden? :wink:

46

Isn’t there a suit or something contending that the Colorado police actually shot one or two of the kids at Columbine High School as they were running out of the building?

47

On the ground or running, only? That’s a little too simple, but I’ll take it. Nonetheless, you’re still relying on the teacher to aim at the right person and shoot accurately.

I just get the vision of a jittery teacher shooting an innocent person, child or teacher, who took the teacher by surprise when he or she dashed out of or into a room too quick - or mistaking a teacher with a gun to be the shooter and firing.

Then when the police arrive, they’ve got to worry about all these things as well.

All this together, I think it mucks up the situation more than helps it.

48

I’m pro-gun enough that I own one and have a CCP, but letting teachers carry guns into a school is one of the worst ideas I’ve heard. Teachers shouldn’t carry guns for the same reasons prison correction officers don’t-horrible things can happen if someone gets a gun away from one of them.

49

Metal detectors dont do any good at schools.

At least, they have absolutely no effect in preventing school shootings of the Columbine type shooting, and dont save any lives. They just add one more death to the body count(i.e. the metal detector operator).

If someone wanted to go into a school and shoot up a bunch of students and teachers, and there was a person at each door with a metal detector, then all he does is shoot the person behind the metal detector, and walks right by the dead body of the metal detector operator.

Anyone who thinks installing metal detectors in schools/school entrances would prevent another Columbine, is just plain nutty.

Isreal used to have a lot of school shooting, but after they let teachers carry guns, and after they recruited the PTA to have its members come in while armed and monitor the hallways, they dont have school shootings anymore. The armed hall monitors in Isreal(parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc of students) dont run out of the school and hide behind fire trucks like the Columbine cops(shame!!! shame!!! shame!!!), the armed Isreali parents are there to prevent school shootings and stop someone who tries it immediately.

50

The school shooting in Padukah Kentucky did not get to the Columbine numbers, because a teacher/assistant principal, Joel Myrick, grabbed his 45 automatic from his car and stopped Luke Woodham from killing any more people.

The school shooting at the Virginia Law school , did not get to the Columbine numbers, because 2 of the students, Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges, who had ccw’s and were armed, stopped the killer: Nigerian student Peter Odighizuwa , from killing any more people.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/25/153427.shtml

51

“In 1974 Israel armed volunteer parents and grandparents and asked them to patrol their schools and grounds. They have not had a child killed in school since they put this program in place. Even though Israel is the target of terrorists and other violent radicals, they have not had one child killed in twenty seven years!”

http://www.kc3.com/news/safe_schools.htm

“…a controversial debate erupted in Israel in regards to guns, self defense etc. We heard of course the same dumb arguments by some good people, you always hear on these occasions like " We do not live in the Wild West here!” Or: “Guns don’t solve problems!” or similar silly things.

With the help of some smart people, not the least the then Commander-in-Chief, Northern Command Paratroop General Raful Eytan, all the reservists on the settlements were issued their personal weapons, and whoever had a clean track record could get a concealed weapons permit. I for instance had and still have one.

Teachers and kindergarten nurses now started to carry guns, schools were protected by parents (and often grandpas) guarding them in voluntary shifts. No school group went on a hike or trip without armed guards. "

"When the message got around to the PLO groups and a couple infiltration attempts failed, the attacks against schools ceased. Too much of a risk here: Terrorists and other evildoers don’t like risks. "
(Dr. David Th. Schiller, Ramat Yochanan, Isreal)

52

[nitpick]
If I’m remembering my Crime Library reading correctly, the Luke Woodham shooting happened in Mississippi, while the Michael Carneal shooting was in Kentucky.
[/nickpick]

53

I haven’t heard of it. Considering the coverage of the event, and that the police tracked every single bullet in the school to the weapon that fired it, I kind of doubt that it has any merit, but I would certainly welcome any information to the contrary.

That’s a general concern with any CCW-holder, but in general, mistakes like that seem to be incredibly rare.

Cop, singular. And he was heavily out-gunned. He had, IIRC, a revolver and was wearing a bright yellow vest, while the shooter nearest him (60 yards away) had a semi-automatic rifle. At 60 yards, the guy with the rifle has the advantage.

They also didn’t run out of the school. The first officer on-scene (Deputy Gardner) was off-campus to the northwest when the first reports came in, and was arriving in the south parking lot when he came under fire. By that time, they had knowledge that there were multiple explosives, including many that detonated while the police were arriving, the potential for booby-traps, the possibilities of numerous hostages (About 17), and an unknown number of shooters (Up to 6, by some claims). They contained the area, helped students fleeing the building, and waited for SWAT (Who, incidentally, formed a quick ad-hoc team, and despite the above problems, AND the possible threat of a sniper on the roof, AND the fact that they were lacking a good deal of tactical equipment, AND a lack of good maps or plans for the school, made entry to the school within minutes of organizing).

54

What’s the difference between packing heat in a mall filled with teenagers and packing heat in a public school?

Marc

55

There’s a big difference. Columbine was a high school, not a shopping mall. I don’t remember offhand any mall shootings. Do you?

56

Devil’s advocate, but wouldn’t that mean that there’s more of a need for people to be able to defend themselves in a school?

57

Quite the contrary. That’s why I think there should be absolutely ZERO guns in school zones held by private citizens, and my state’s laws agree with that 100%.

As I said, I’d prefer to have a full-time law enforcement officer for every school, but that’s a pipe dream. Until that day, there should be no guns in schools.

58

Wasn’t there a shooting at a mall in Canada not all that long ago?

59

If you dont trust teachers having guns, then why are you entrusting your childrens minds to them?

If you dont trust a pilot with a gun, dont fly on american planes.

Why even trust police with guns? England doesnt.

The “job” that a gun owner has does not make him any more trusting as an individual. What someone does for a living to pay his bills, does not change any persons capacity. Police are not special, they are not gods, their brains are no different than anyone else, they are just plain old regular people who took a governemnt job instead of choosing something else for a living.

There are even some people who might think that teachers, as a whole, might even be “better”, or less apt/likely to hurt people, are kinder, less violent, less likely to shoot someone, than the type of people who end up working as cops for a living. Who is to say?

Go to a police academy and see what kinds of young people are becoming police, they are just like any other kids, I dont see any difference between them and any other kids. I dont see where police are any more moral, more careful, or more trustworthy than anyone else, teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, machinists, etc. with a gun.

An armed woman in a school with a gun, is the same person, whether her employer is the police department, or the school system. There have even been some people who have switched jobs, ex-police becoming teachers, and ex-teachers who became cops.

60

Well, for one thing, there are no laws of which I am aware that require you and I to send our children to a public shopping mall for several hours a day, five days a week.

Although I bet the kids wouldn’t squawk about it near as much as they do school.

I am a teacher. I own guns. I like guns. I like explosives, too, but the ATF tends to be kind of sticky about those.

I do, however, make a point of not shooting things that are alive. I don’t much care for that. I’m a sport shooter. My guns would be effective against intruders in my home, but the situation has never arisen.

Why? Because I live in a pretty safe place. I’d say the odds of someone breaking into my house and attacking my family are durn near nil. We do have burglaries from time to time, but only one “home invasion” in the past decade. I’d feel perfectly safe, even if I didn’t own any guns.

The public school campus on which I work has two full-time police officers. They arrived about a year after Columbine, voted upon and funded by the school board and the district. I’m not sure why; we have had no school shootings, nor anyone brandishing weapons. The occasional fistfight is as bad as it gets. This, in the middle of Texas, perhaps the most heavily armed state in the union.

Now, I’m not in favor of gun control. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns, and I don’t like that.

…but I think it works fine for on-campus. After all, how many outlaws do we have at my school? NONE! OUTLAWS DON’T GO TO SCHOOL!

Now, I think that if students started showing up with guns, that would very much impact my decision as to whether or not to renew my contract for next year. Is this an isolated incident, a freak accident? Or does this shit happen regularly? I’d certainly want to know!

…but when the school informs me that the teachers may now carry concealed heat, I am SO gone. Man, if the situation has reached a point where two cops aren’t enough… where now, old Mrs. Grundy can have a 9mm in case her Home Ec class comes over the desk at her…

…man, it’s time for me to find a new damn job. Sure, what happens when a kid goes for his cell phone, suddenly? What happens when Mr. Oberhauser breaks off his secret longtime affair with Mrs. Limetoad?

Forget that. I’m gonna move.

As in “change my address,” not “go for my gun.”