Your states laws rather inconclusively state that it’s illegal to bring a gun onto school property unless it is for a lawful supervised activity or other lawful purpose. See below:
The PA State Attorney General has refused to answer any questions regarding what “other lawful purpose” entails, but has stated that there have been no court rulings in PA regarding PA Code 18-912 and holders of Licenses to Carry Concealed Firearms.
I’d say that one doesn’t have a definite answer until there’s a case and a court that rules as to whether concealed carry by a license holder is covered under “other lawful purpose”, as concealed carry is a lawful purpose for possession of a concealed firearm.
There are a hundred million americans who own guns. Some of them have jobs as teachers, pilots, doctors, Pharacists, police, landscapers, bar owners, rock stars, actors, computer programmers, radiologists, medical assistants, etc.
Would you ban them from carrying their gun in a school?
If you just got off an airplane with your pilot who carries a gun, would you not allow him into your school because he might be dangerous?
If your gun carrying phamacist or doctor walks into a school with his gun, does he somehow become less trustworthy, less stable than he was when he was in his doctors office?
Would you take your children or even go into a bar or restaruant where the bar owner has a gun?
If you dont trust people who own or carry guns, then why would you trust any gun owner ? Why would you even hire an attorney who has a ccw?
Why are teachers less stable, less trustworthy, than people who have other jobs like pharmacy, or nursing, or cutting grass?
What am I missing? Why are teachers singled out as not being as trustworthy and why are they inherrently more dangerous than attorneys or rock stars or pediatricians or the minimum wage mall security guards with guns? Why is everyone so “down” specifically on teachers?
If my doctor or attorney wants to pack heat in his or her office, peachy. I, for one, do not mean to give him/her cause to draw it.
But I don’t wanna work in an environment where people feel the need to pack guns, and I sure’s hell don’t want my kids going to school there. I’ll go somewhere else, where people feel safe enough that they don’t need guns.
No, you are right, but the fact is, that kids do go to malls, they do go to rock concerts, they do go to lots of stores and other places where there are minimum wage security guards with guns.
I suggest that you talk to these security guards when you shop, when you drop off your kids at the music festival, and try to get to know these men and women who work as armed security guards who are around your children.
If you still think that these private armed security guards are somehow much more trustworthy, less prone to shooting of his or her gun in the middle of a crowd with your children there than your childs grade school or high school teacher, then I would I would like to know why you think your childs teachers are so untrustworthy compared to those security guards at the mall.
Just curious, and I seriously want to know why some people “trust” those security guards more than their childrens teachers.
I’ve never seen a mall cop or a concert security person with a gun.
My issue with teachers from carrying guns has nothing to do with the teachers’ trustworthiness. Most people I know who own guns are trustworthy people, and I have no problem with them carrying a gun wherever the law allows them.
My concern is for the kids. Not their safety, as schools remain safe for the most part, but that three or four of them could easily decide to overpower a teacher packing heat, and then you’ve got three or four kids with a deadly weapon in their hands.
We do have crimes and child abductions at or on the way to school, or on the school grounds.
FYI, All!!! of the criminals we now have in prison, were once in school at one time or anothter. Some even commit crimes while in school.
Lots of todays prisoners are even getting high school and college degrees while in prison, some are even let out of prison to attend class, or are on parole while in school.
All of tomorrows criminals/outlaws are in todays schools, some of them may even be in your childs classroom. Our schools today are filled with tomorrows criminals. The rapists, murderers, pedophiles, robbers of tomorrow are all in todays classrooms.
It may be true that todays criminals who specifically rob for a living do not try to get their money from the lunch money that grade schoolers have(pretty slim pickings), but murderers do go to school:
School shootings can happen anywhere, so can other violent crimes, school children and teachers have and are victims of crime, there is no reason to feel that your own school is immune and that it will never happen to your school(that is what the people who have had shootings and rapes and pedophiles used to think before it happened to them).
Lots of henious crimes happen in what was thought by many as “nice” areas/schools/towns, just ask Lacy Peterson, Sharon Tate, JonBenet Ramsey, or the kids murdered in Columbine.
Then what do you say about the fact that some states allow CCW-holders to carry guns into schools, and that has not been a factor in school violence so far?
so… those 4 same kids will overpower a teacher and steal her gun, could not/would not do the same thing to a police officer, or to a security guard, or to a sporting goods clerk?
Those same 4 kids that you mention, who cant find a teacher with a gun, will be so frustrated that they will give up their decision to take on a life of crime/murder and never try to get a gun somewhere else?
I got news for you: 4 kids who will overpower a teacher and steal her gun for who knows what purpose, are not going to be rehabilited and give up whatever original intentions they might have had.
Are you saying that preventing students from overpowering their teachers and stealing the teachers guns will stop school shootings?
How many times has this happened?
Laws against teachers having/carrying guns is fairly new in American history, if what you are thinking were really a legitimate threat, there must have been lots of instances where such a thing happened in the last 100-200 years? When I went to school, we had no such laws preventing teachers from carrying guns. When my father went to school, there even were no laws against students carrying guns to grade school.
Can you cite some examples where this has happened in American schools in the past? My father and grandfather never heard of such a thing in the past. Curious.
Dont try to tell me that “things/people are different today”, and that people today are more evil than the people of 20, 100, or 1000 years ago. I find it hard to believe, and there is no evidence, that the basic inherrent nature of “man” is any better or worse than it was 20, 100, or 4000 years ago.
You will find once you get to know some of them, that they are regular people just like anybody else.
Your impression that people who happen to have jobs as cops are somehow better, more trustworthy than people of other occupations is really, really, really naive.
I have known enough cops to know that some are fine, upstanding people, and some of them are scum with badges. Just like everyone else.
And, again, I don’t NOT trust teachers. Some are fine, upstanding people, and some are scum with teaching certificates.
As far as I can tell, laws forbidding guns on school grounds are not unconstitutional. Hell, they don’t seem to affect much, really. Cops are excepted from the law, and everyone else either doesn’t bring a gun to school, or DOES bring a gun to school, and uses it to violate a bunch more laws.
Far as I can tell, “Gun Free School Zones” are a sop, imposed by politicians to give the impression they’re doing something about the “violence in the schools” problem.
My point is this: if there is sufficient problem to warrant putting guns in the hands of teachers, then NO NUMBER OF GUNS will solve that problem. The problem should be dealt with from a different angle. WHY are the teachers needing to be armed? What problem brings about this unsafe situation? What can be done about it? Why are other schools NOT violent, and how can we bring about safety in OUR school?
GUNS DO NOT PREVENT VIOLENCE. All they can really do is make one person a bit better equipped to DEAL with it when the violence HAPPENS.
And as far as I’m concerned, violence shouldn’t be happenin’ in the schools. Fistfights should be stopped promptly. Consequences should be imposed for violence in the schools.
If one kid brings a gun to school, that’s bad. Examine the situation and determine how to prevent a recurrence.
If several kids are bringing guns to school, launch a total fucking exhaustive investigation, and determine what the fucking fuck is wrong with this school district that it has become a goddamn war zone!
Why can we not say, “If there is sufficient problem to warrant putting guns in the hands of citizens and calling them ‘police’, then NO NUMBER OF GUNS will solve that problem”? Can we substitute “soldier” there as well? I understand you want this argument to be exclusionary; I do not understand what it excludes if not a dismissal of all guns everywhere.
I don’t know about you, but if I were a pimply faced teen with a bunch of angst ridden friends who only knew of three places to get a gun (cop, store clerk, or teacher), I’d jump the teacher. Cops have training in how to bust heads and use other means of submission other than their gun, so they could take down four teens rather easily. A store clerk has other employees, plus possible other witnesses, and then there’s the whole issue of getting the gun to school the next day without being caught. But a teacher? Think about the teachers you had in highschool. Now think of how many of them you couldn’t overpower. In my five years of high school (it starts in 8th grade for boys in New Orleans), I can name maybe ten teachers, the majority of which being coaches, and one English teacher. Everyone else? Shit, I wouldn’t need four friends to drop any of my math professors, and I’m sure they’d be the prime targets. A teacher is a much more viable target, because even with the knowledge that a teacher has a gun, students will know “You can’t do anything to me, otherwise my parents are going to sue your ass, and the school’s ass, and you’ll be without a job.” Why do you think things get so bad in schools? In some extreme places, students molest teachers, verbally and physically abuse them, and don’t listen to what they’re told because they KNOW that there’s nothing the teacher can do. Shit, I worked at a fucking summer camp where I was in charge of 6-12 year olds throughout the course of the day, and I had to deal with that shit!
But the kids recognized the authority of a police officer. The wouldn’t show me any damned respect because I was just some 20 year old punk, but an adult with an authority status…that’s a bit different. Sure, the mindset of teenagers’ changes quite a bit, but there’s still something ingrown in them that a police officer has the ability and right to beat the crap out of you if you act up. Teachers do not, and that’s where the difference lies.
Now, laws reinstating corporal punishment in high schools…that could be a good step. Give the teachers training in some form of martial arts that relies on submission holds and the like. That way, if a student acts up and starts threatening a teacher, they can pin them to the floor and have them removed. I don’t care how tough you are, when someone’s got you bent over and all they have to do is apply a bit more preasure to snap your arm, one tends to calm down. And it’s a hell of a lot safer than carting a gun around.
I think you might better understand if you knew why cops carry guns:
Cops dont carry guns to protect you, they carry guns to protect themselves!
The handgun that a cop wears, is for his self defense. Occasionally, rarely, he may protect someone else besides himself with his weapon, just as a teacher or nurse might if she saw a crime in progress upon someone else.
Since the handgun that a policeman carries is for his self defense, I dont see why a policeman should need a gun for self defense in a school where a teacher does not need one for self defense.
If a gun makes a policeman " a bit better equipped to DEAL with it when the violence HAPPENS", then so should a gun make a teacher " make one person a bit better equipped to DEAL with it when the violence HAPPENS.
One could even make the arguement that a cop needs a gun for self defense LESS than a teacher might in a school, since many cops are trained in karate, billy clubs, pepper spray, and other non firearm tactics of fighting that most teachers are not similarly trained in.
To allow police in schools to carry self defense weapons while at the same time excluding others(teachers) from that same self defense protection is illogical and irrational. One could also make an arguement that a teacher is more likely to be seriously attacked, or witness someone being seriously attacked , than a police officer. How many cops are raped, attacked, and murdered in schools, and how many teachers are raped attacked and murdered? Which is more likely to be attacked in a school, a teacher or a cop?
The question is not: “WHY are the teachers needing to be armed?”, the question is: Why does a cop “NEED” a gun for self defense in a school if a teacher does not need one?
FYI, there is no such thing as : “Gun Free School Zones”.
Criminals take guns into any place that they want to, schools, bars, post offices, churches, etc. where ever.
There are only places/zones where the only ones with guns are criminals, and where non-criminal citizens are defenseless.
I think I agree with you if you are saying that cops dont need their handguns for self defense while they are in a school iof teachers dont.
Obviously, if a teacher has no need of any gun for self defense while in a school even though she may be old, 100 pounds and not athletic, then certainly a cop who knows “how to bust heads” certainly should be made to leave his handgun in his car before he enters any school?
If you are talking about the United States, then I suggest you move to Washington DC.
It is considered by many to be/feel the “safest” place in all of America.
It is a place where gun use, ownership, and the carrying of guns is the least of any other place in the country, a place where gun laws are the most restrictive in the entire country. It is considered in Washigton DC that nearly no one has a need to carry a gun for self defense. Not only the schools, but the entire city is pretty much designated a “gun free zone”, even visitors cannot bring in a gun to that city anymore. Washington DC is a Utopia for gun control advocates!
I have no doubt four kids willing to overpower a teacher would be willing to overpower someone else, but this thread is about teachers, rather than police officers, security guards or sporting goods clerks.
(Nor is it about Jonbenet Ramsey or Sharon Tate, though they somehow worked their way into one of your earlier posts. Whether six-year-olds and wives of Roman Polanksky should be allowed to carry concealed handguns is a debate for another thread.)
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I’m willing to take your word on this.
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I did not say that.
As your own example with the metal detector operator illustrated, anyone determined to carry out a school shooting will carry it out. I’m opposed to arming teachers because I’m not willing to let potential school shooters have yet another source for guns, particularly since having more guns available could make them an impulse crime.
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Off the top of my head-Barry Loukatis, Andrew Wurst, the Wayne Lo shooting at Simon’s Rock College (if you’ll count that), Luke Woodham, Michael Carneal, Andrew Golden/Mitchell Johnson in Arkansas, Kip Kinkel in Oregon, Columbine, Thomas Solomon (in Georgia, I believe), the junior high kid in the midwest who failed to actually kill anyone, the six-year-old shooter in Flint (if you count that), the kid in the San Diego area.
So, 12, by that very rough count, and those were all shootings that received a great deal of media attention. How much higher would you like that number to go?
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I’m not really sure what how this is supposed to support your point.
If there were no laws preventing a teacher from toting a gun to a school, that simply means that a teacher couldn’t be charged with a crime if he or she was caught with one on school grounds. Maybe lawmakers were busy making laws about those new-fangled cars everyone was buying, maybe they were sincerely okay with teachers packing heat. Who knows?
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I don’t know if I could, but I’m positive I won’t. Happily, I have better things to do than comb through 100-200 years of historical and legal documents hoping to find a documented instance of a student wresting a handgun away from a teacher.
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I won’t tell you that, because I happen to agree that basic human nature is unchanged since the Pleistocene.
I’m stunned that so many of you don’t trust the police. It’s one thing to hold the belief that the police won’t be able to help you immediately when something happens, because I tend to believe that as well. They are reactive, not the proactive organization they were intended to be. Therefore, I take the initiative, with the knowledge that the police will come and help me soon if something happens.
But “Your impression that people who happen to have jobs as cops are somehow better, more trustworthy than people of other occupations is really, really, really naive” is a very harsh condemnation of people who stick their necks out for you day in and day out. They have earned my trust, and as a result I trust them implicitly with handguns and I trust them to do the right thing, even as I curse them for giving me speeding tickets I so richly deserve.
Your lack of faith in the police speaks of more serious problems in this country than we can ever hope to solve.
Airman, the point is that they’re just people, they’re not better than you or I. I frankly don’t see how that’s such a blow to your worldview.
They’re people. I trust them as much as I would trust any person who is afforded such power over the rest of us: less. I believe this is actually a prudent maneuver. People that have the ability to do a great deal of damage in my life in a very short period of time without leaving me much recourse do not get the benefit of the doubt.
I’m sure there are nice cops just like I’m sure there are nice CEOs and nice politicians. I harbor no misconception that just because they are in that position they are somehow “better” than anyone else.