VA senate seat: Looks like Webb is toast to me

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Apos]
I guess they should, but it’s… a novel. The hysteria is certainly at a fever pitch given that people are saying that scenes in a novel where no one is supposed to be angels is worse than ACTUAL behavior of Mark Foley.

So, I dunno: should a candidate be responsible for the long long history of racial slurs that George Allen has, especially given that he’s refused to acknowledge, much less apologize for them? If George Allen is re-elected, Virginia is going to have some racial egg on its face for a long time, especially if Allen indeed tries to run for President.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t you wish that the Dems and the media could have just stopped at “Foley is a pervert”? But that would have been off the TV in a couple of news cycles. Instead they made it part of Pelosi’s cesspool cleanout. Wonder what Nancy thinks of this kind of writing? Where is Nancy? Think anyone will get a chance to ask her? Think anyone who does get a chance would?

22

[QUOTE=Bricker]
Because until this ridiculous example came along, you could have quizzed 10,000 Virginians about whther “macaca” was even an insult, much less one with racial conotations, and gotten a statistically insignificant number of positive responses.
[/quote]

But that’s irrelevant. It only matters whether or not Allen knew what the word meant.

I know that last part was addressed at Hentor, but I don’t think he would react differently if it had been a Democrat. The evidence that Allen knew what the word meant is just too overwhelming. Plus, he changed his story several times about what he supposedly thought the word meant, and none of his explanations made any sense at all. “Macaca” just isn’t the kind of word a person makes up out of the blue, and it certainly wasn’t meant as a compliment. I can buy that he might not have known the dictionary definition (in French), but he surely knew it was a racial insult, especially since it was paired with the “welcome to America” comment.

As to the OP, I agree that Allen will probably run, and I don’t think the novels should be relevant in the campaign. I also don’t think dredging up things Allen did in college is relevant, either, but he brought that on his little macaca ass himself. That’s the way politics works.

23

[QUOTE=John Mace]
As to the OP, I agree that Allen will probably run…
[/QUOTE]

make that “win”, not “run”.

24

[QUOTE=John Mace]
I know that last part was addressed at Hentor, but I don’t think he would react differently if it had been a Democrat.
[/quote]
After the little slack that I’ve historically cut you, I must admit that you’re a far better man than I am.

Not that you’ve really achieved much in that, but I thought I should say it anyway.

25

[QUOTE=What the … !!!]
Don’t you wish that the Dems and the media could have just stopped at “Foley is a pervert”?
[/quote]

Well, for the Dems to “stop” at “Foley is a pervert”, they first would have had to start attacking Foley. As already mentioned, few Democrats have bothered wiht Foley much. As for the media, they did stop with “Foley is a perfevert.” (Or words to that effect.)

Cite?

Presumably she’s campagining somewhere.

I’ve no clue.

She speaks to the press and the public regularly, so they may ask if they wish.

Probably not. I’d imagine that most people are amply smart enough to figure out that Nancy Pelosi is a politician rather than a literary critic and that her opinions on politics matter while her opinions on literature don’t. Though obviously some people aren’t.

26

[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
It doesn’t matter a bit who in Virginia heard the word “macaca” before. General ignorance of the word was probably why he felt he could use it. Most people probably wouldn’t know what I meant if I accused them of engaging in urolagnia. Doesn’t change what I mean when I use it, or how offended people would be when they learned what it meant.

Your prediction of what I would believe is simply the projection of your own partisan excuses for Allen, and not on reality. The fact that you would engage in such specious argumentation (really, the ignorance of the word) suggests that you are motivated to do some serious stretching and reaching on behalf of Allen.
[/QUOTE]

I’m just curious if you think Robert Byrd is a racist because he used the word “nigger” on Larry King Live a few years ago. Personally, I think as a young man Robert Byrd was indeed a racist. I also believe that “as a young man” was a very long time ago for Senator Byrd, when there was an entirely different culture in place. Most of us would like to assume we’re innately good people and would behave according to our moral values despite what the cultural norm was at the time. I personally like to believe that too, but deep down inside I know it probably just isn’t what would happen precisely because a great deal of your moral values are shaped by your culture.

However, I also believe Robert Byrd was a racist in his early days in Congress and I think his voting record and stance on the civil rights issue makes that very clear.

And, finally, I also believe that Robert Byrd is no longer a racist, sees the error in his stances in the past and genuinely regrets some things from his past. I believe he used the word nigger inappropriately on Larry King Live, but I believe he did it without thinking and it was not evidence that he’s currently a racist.

IN regard to Allen, I believe he knew macaca was a racial slur on some level but I also don’t think he meant to say it. He made a mistake, and I don’t think it was a mistake that reflects on some deep-core racism in Allen’s heart. I genuinely don’t believe that he is a racist.

I oppose Senator Byrd’s political stances pretty much as vehemently as I oppose the political stances of any person in congress, but I don’t and won’t just blanketly label him a racist because of a slip of the tongue. However there was a time, when, primarily motivated out of partisanship I did so, in retrospect I think that was wrong and have come to the opinion that Byrd isn’t a racist simply because of a slip of the tongue. Nor do I think Allen is.

27

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I’m just curious if you think Robert Byrd is a racist because he used the word “nigger” on Larry King Live a few years ago.
[/quote]

Did he call someone a nigger? Please provide the exact quote for context.

He used a racial slur, and IIRC, he used it twice in the span of a few minutes, so I don’t see how that can be attributed to a slip-up. Whether he has deep seated racism into the very core of his heart is a hard thing to tell.

28

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Did he call someone a nigger? Please provide the exact quote for context.
[/quote]

He said:

“Are much, much better than they’ve ever been in my lifetime… I think we talk about race too much. I think those problems are largely behind us … I just think we talk so much about it that we help to create somewhat of an illusion. I think we try to have good will. My old mom told me, ‘Robert, you can’t go to heaven if you hate anybody.’ We practice that. There are white niggers. I’ve seen a lot of white niggers in my time. I’m going to use that word. We just need to work together to make our country a better country, and I’d just as soon quit talking about it so much.”

As did Byrd, although Byrd’s was not directed at a specific named person it was directed at people he has had contact with, although he didn’t name names. My claim that Byrd (and Allen’s) slur was a slip-up isn’t to say it’s something that just came out of his mouth and he had meant to say another word. He used the word, intended to use the word, and intended to use it as an insult. I think it’s possible that Allen didn’t intend the word as a racial slur but I have my doubts on that count. However, I think that both Allen and Byrd willfully did something that they regretted immediately, and didn’t “mean it.” I for one have said things without thinking them through clearly, things that really don’t reflect my feelings and things that I wish I hadn’t said.

The fact that Allen said something isn’t enough to change how I plan to vote, I plan to vote for Senator Allen on election day. Does that mean I think it is okay to throw around racial slurs? No, I don’t. But I don’t believe Allen is a racist, I believe he’s a man who said something without really thinking about it–he made a mistake. If I felt he was truly a racist I’d not vote for him because that’s a serious character flaw that I think is incompatible with a modern day political leader.

In a different vein, in talking about things from a politician’s past here’s an excellent gem from Robert Byrd in the 1940s when he vowed never to fight (in WWII):

“with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”

29

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
He said:

“Are much, much better than they’ve ever been in my lifetime… I think we talk about race too much. I think those problems are largely behind us … I just think we talk so much about it that we help to create somewhat of an illusion. I think we try to have good will. My old mom told me, ‘Robert, you can’t go to heaven if you hate anybody.’ We practice that. There are white niggers. I’ve seen a lot of white niggers in my time. I’m going to use that word. We just need to work together to make our country a better country, and I’d just as soon quit talking about it so much.”
[/quote]

OK. I’d put that in exactly the same category as the “macaca” remark.

BTW, here’s a link if anyone wants to read it. It’s pretty much at the end.

30

[QUOTE=ITR champion]
If Shakespeare or Dickens were running for Senate as Democrats, I imagie Sludge would blast them for promoting underage sex as well. Of course, whether the people of Virginia care remains to be seen.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus would get creamed on his liberal taxation, social justice, and foreign policy views. (It’s funny, but it’s true :frowning: )

31

Practiced medicine without a license. Consorted with known prostitutes. No home address. Rumored to have some Jewish ancestry. Which we won’t mention, because that would be wrong. Only known to have bathed once (possible hydrophobia?) Clearly “counter-cultural” in dress and demeanor. Has threatened to “render Caeser”. Claims to come from a good family, but paternity issues are troubling.

Unelectable.

32

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Practiced medicine without a license. Consorted with known prostitutes. No home address. Rumored to have some Jewish ancestry. Which we won’t mention, because that would be wrong. Only known to have bathed once (possible hydrophobia?) Clearly “counter-cultural” in dress and demeanor. Has threatened to “render Caeser”. Claims to come from a good family, but paternity issues are troubling.

Unelectable.
[/QUOTE]

For a second I thought you were talking about George Allen!

33

[QUOTE=What the … !!!]
I’m sure that Allen’s slurs were proven beyond any doubt that may have existed among the vast majority of the GD wing of the SDMB, so let’s not go there.

Was there any truth to the allegations (I’ll find them if I have to) that Webb used to cruise around black neighborhoods and point guns at the inhabitants?
[/QUOTE]

-The interview in which he supposedly said this was taped and transcripted… and the remarks appear nowhere
-The other people who were supposedly involved say that it never happened
-It would be an incredibly silly thing to do
-The guy making the claims said explicitly that he was saying what he said as payback for the people coming out about Allen, and he came out with Allen’s help

Webb also never claimed never to have used the word, as Allen did.

That makes it decidedly different from any of the Allen allegations, in which there are no less than 12 people that came forward to the media on the record (and more not on the record confirming on background) many of which confirmed basic details of the stories. The people whom Allen brought forward as rebutalls had no specific rebuttals at all other than “that’s not the Allen I know” or “I never heard him talk like that.” Plus it fits into an already well-established pattern of documented behavior going back to high-school. That stuff might well NOT be relevant in a campaign except for the fact that Allen MADE A PUBLIC CLAIM AS TO NEVER HAVING USED THE WORD EVER. That is what brought people out who not only knew better, but knew that the claim was just ridiculous considering his past behavior.

As for Webb’s books, Bricker, you might note that what Webb describes (the boy and penis) is not praised in the book, and it is in fact something that is apparently common in some Asian cultures and that Webb WITNESSED and worked into his novel as an authenticism of what he saw: to the point where Cambodian cultural organizations have had to defend mothers from doing it to their children here in the states, apparently unaware that, er, it was not going to go over well.

In short, Allen’s attempt, and drudge’s complicity in trying to portray it as something sinister on Webb’s part is especially dishonest and disgusting, don’t you think? I especially like how drudge cuts off Webb’s response and presents it alone “it wasn’t sexual”: which of course sounds ridiculous if you don’t know the full story.

34

[QUOTE=John Mace]
OK. I’d put that in exactly the same category as the “macaca” remark.
[/quote]

Really?

In that quote,
-the basic gist of the quote is “racial relations are better: black, white, we’re all no better than each other and you can’t be a good Christian based on hate”
-Byrd almost immediately apologized for the use of the word

In Allen’s case:
-the gist of the quote was “look at that macaca over there: he doesn’t belong, he and his candidate don’t know the REAL virginia” (despite “macaca” being a native, unlike Allen, and Webb having way more roots in the area than Allen)
-Allen’s “apology” was the standard-non-apology “I apologize if anyone was offended” and that only came after seven different contradictory explanations for where the word came from and an attempt to blame what he himself said on Webb.

More importantly, Byrd spent a lot of time apologizing and repudiating his past views. Allen won’t even admit to them, and his denials have long ago passed the point of complete implausibility. The pattern of racial issues he’s amassed are simply too overwhemingly to be smugly dismissed by Bricker.

35

[QUOTE=What the … !!!]
Wonder what Nancy thinks of this kind of writing? Where is Nancy? Think anyone will get a chance to ask her? Think anyone who does get a chance would?
[/QUOTE]

Good point. The fact the the Democratic minority leader of the House has not commented on what a Senate candidate wrote in a fictional novel 20 some years ago clearly makes her unfit to be Speaker. The obtuseness of your arguments are literally breathtaking.

36

[QUOTE=Bricker]
Would that the shrill crowd attacking Allen… I wonder why others in this thread can do so for Webb, but not for Allen?
[/QUOTE]

I wonder why you’re not calling the crowd attacking the Democrat “shrill” as well? :dubious:

37

[QUOTE=Frostillicus]
Good point. The fact the the Democratic minority leader of the House has not commented on what a Senate candidate wrote in a fictional novel 20 some years ago clearly makes her unfit to be Speaker. The obtuseness of your arguments are literally breathtaking.
[/QUOTE]

C’mon Frosty I can see your breath… the questions were rhetorical and meant to tie a Senate candidate who arguably (how do you like that for a weasel-word) writes pornographic passages to a corrupted culture worthy of a cesspool that Pelosi has claimed she will clean up for America.

38

Senator Macaca will probably pull it off unless (1) the democratic storm surge is unexpectedly large or (2) Gail Parker drops out and throws her support behind Webb. Either 1 or 2 will make the race a photo finish. A combination of 1 and 2 will give Webb the win.

39

[QUOTE=What the … !!!]
C’mon Frosty I can see your breath… the questions were rhetorical and meant to tie a Senate candidate who arguably (how do you like that for a weasel-word) writes pornographic passages to a corrupted culture worthy of a cesspool that Pelosi has claimed she will clean up for America.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, please. Look, I don’t like Webb, but I’ll almost certainly end up holding my nose and voting for him in a little while, because I am convinced that Allen is a bully, a racist, and a poseur, and because I believe that every vote for a Republican this year is an endorsement of this administration’s and this Congress’s catastrophically horrible governance. And if Nancy Pelosi’s alleged promise to cleanup a cesspool culture (cite for that, btw?) means she has to police the decades-old fiction of every currently active political figure, then she’s got her work cut out for her. As Salon points out:

(Sorry for the tu quoque – God, they’re hard to avoid, sometimes).

40

"I’m just curious if you think Robert Byrd is a racist because he used the word ‘nigger’ on Larry King Live a few years ago.

-Martin Hyde

Just to clear this up, it was actually on “Fox Sunday Live” and his interviewer was Tony Snow, who did not respond to the comment during the interview.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/byrd.slur/