I’m not sure whether these questions exceed the scope of this thread, but here goes.
When a significant portion of my fellow citizens/species members adopt a position I do not understand, I try to find some explanation other than simply concluding a sizeable percentage of people are just stupid. (And “stupid” could include people who fear conspiracies, who simply are bad at calculating risks, who are selfish, etc.) So I ask, is there any non-derogatory explanation for why people would refuse to be vaccinated?
Second, what, if anything, could/should governments or other entities do to encourage vacc (or address non-vacc)? Should proof of vacc be required to attend school? To renew one’s driver’s license? Anything else?
Mrs. MeanJoe works assisting long term care and assisted living facilities. We’ve talked about the refusal of the staff at these facilities to get the vaccine. Most of these location are in rural areas and are heavy Trump Country. My argument was “F-ck them, they get the shot or they find a new job!”. Unfortunately the reality is these facilities are already significantly under staffed. Being rural locations where the employment pool isn’t very deep and these are low paying jobs, it’s hard to find qualified staff under normal conditions. A mandate for vaccination as a term of employment could greatly degrade the already understaffed conditions dealing with care for the elderly, etc. It’s truly rock vs. hard place for these facility owners.
One of the trends in these facilities is initially it was the residents who were the higher percentage testing positive for COVID. Over time that has trended downward but healthcare members and staff positive rates has been increasing. A couple weeks ago the tables tipped and now more staff are currently positive than residents. Yet the vaccination rate for staff remains very low.
Anti-vaxxers claim their freedom is impinged upon by pressure to get the vaccine. This commentator makes the excellent point that those not vaccinated don’t have the “right” to spread the virus.
…
At some point, only the willfully ignorant and destructive will remain unvaccinated. Once that happens, employers, retail establishments, entertainment venues, public buildings, public transportation, colleges and (when vaccines are approved for children) K-12 schools should insist that people present a secure form of proof of vaccination before entering.
The resolutely anti-vaccination crowd will holler about their “freedom” being taken away. Nonsense. Schools already require an array of vaccinations for children. Public and private establishments can require shoes and shirts. Employers can require safety equipment be worn. The ornery holdouts won’t be mandated by the government to get shots, but they should not be able to enjoy the benefits, privileges and access that responsible Americans have earned by getting vaccinated.
There is no right to remain a breeding ground for dangerous coronavirus variants or a threat to the small number of people still susceptible to the virus despite their vaccinations (known as breakthrough infections). The country is approaching the point when it should stop catering to those bent on being a danger to themselves and others. We have all sacrificed too much for too long to indulge reckless conduct.
My bold.
Refusing to be vaccinated is not an act limited to personal consequences. It puts the public in danger.
So if 30% of the police and fire services decline a vaccine, you and Ms Rubin think we’ll just not let them into buildings? I mean, I get the outrage but you have to remember you aren’t catering to anything.It’s working with reality. You might have noticed that all the levers of power aren’t on your side and the laws of the land don’t make enforced vaccination easy.
The OP is looking for a factual discussion (hence the factual tag). This is not an opinion thread or a debate about what should be done and whether the public is in danger. As specified in the OP, you may contribute personal experience as data. Otherwise, please focus on providing data and take comments like these to more appropriate threads.
Mrs. L.A.'s capstone project for her BSN was on the understaffing of nursing homes and similar places. From her first-hand experience and her research for her paper, it’s not so much that these facilities are understaffed due to a dearth of qualified applicants, but because it’s cheaper for the facilities to overwork and underpay staff than it is to hire enough staff to meet the minimum time-per-patient required under national guidelines.
Yes, it’s cheaper. The real question is how many people would start up a nursing home if they had to pay proper salaries with proper staff-client ratios. It is a rather reasonable suggestion, imho, that a well run nursing home is not profitable at reasonable prices.
Being non-derogatory and factual as much as possible, yes.
A history of anaphylaxis (especially to a vaccine), or reasoning that a history of having been infected with Covid-19 confers immunity are at least semi-reasonable justifications for not getting vaccinated.
On the other hand:
People with a history of anaphylaxis have been successfully vaccinated without incident, with
careful observation post-vaccination. A Mass General/Brigham study of vaccinated employees found anaphylactic reactions occurred in something like 16 out of 65,000 people. of whom one was admitted to ICU for treatment; a few others got intramuscular epinephrine injections. All recovered.
As for immunity post-infection, indications from several studies are that it lasts in most people at least 6-8 months. Whether immunity is sustained way beyond that is still uncertain, as is degree of protection against variant strains.
People who refuse Covid vaccines out of unjustified fear are best approached with logic and good evidence. When that fails, incentives can start to kick in.
I’ve heard a bit more from my hesitant relatives. The say they are worried about the newness in the mRNA vaccines, which has some plausibility. If they get a vaccine it will be the J&J. They are still in the group of people who think it’s overblown; a bunch of them have contracted COVID in the last 6 weeks with very little in symptoms.
This sounds like my husband’s POV. We think I might have had COVID back in March of 2020 (I could not get tested due to shortages of tests), he had no symptoms at all in that timeframe.
I’ve elected to do the vaccine (had my first dose of Moderna last weekend), he’s still reluctant due to not being convinced the vaccine isn’t itself at least as likely to cause him trouble. He’s rather inclined toward hermithood under normal conditions, so isn’t all that likely to vector anything contagious (my job and use of public transit make me more likely to do so). OTOH, he is 58 and diabetic.
200 million vaccines have been administered in the US alone with almost no problems (aside from the J&J one which barely registers as a problem and not for your husband). I submit your husband is a closet anti-vaxxer.
If he is not vaccinated and you are out and about then he is at risk of you bringing it home (I think it is still unclear whether a vaccinated person is immune or just resistant to COVID-19).
He really should get vaccinated. Especially since he has underlying health issues. Ask your doctor.
Here’s another way to look at this issue. I can’t take credit for this formulation; another Doper posted it in one of our COVID threads.
Flu kills 30-50K Americans every year, year in and year out. And many more people in the rest of the world. The masking and social distancing precautions we took this most recent winter wiped out the flu almost completely. Damn near nobody died of flu. Despite the many maskholes & non-compliant folks out there. And little difference in flu vaccine uptake this year versus other recent years.
Despite all those precautions and the good results on flu, COVID has mowed down nigh onto to 600,000 Americans in the same time. That’s roughly double the US death toll in WWII. Which took 4 years to accumulate while COVID did it in just over 1 year. And shows no signs of stopping any time soon.
COVID is not “overblown”. Your family members are acting willfully ignorant and willfully reckless to themselves and to everyone around them.
If they can’t wrap their heads around near-600k deaths in the US they won’t be phased by what happens in India.
I blame Trump for this. Calling it a “hoax” early on and trying to downplay it created a political line in the sand. Now Trump supporters have to either admit he was wrong or continue to believe it’s overblown.
I have two brothers who are vehemently anti-mask and anti-vax. Incongruously they also believe this is all biological warfare by China.
One of them lied and got the vaccine as early as possible. He keeps up the COVID-hoax crap because his clients (a bunch of small business owners in the Inland Empire and Nevada) are right wing nut jobs.
The other lied to say that he DID get the vaccine, so that he could stay at my parents house when he was in the area. My mother didn’t believe him, because with his age and health he would not have qualified for the vaccine by then. He’s texted us (siblings) that he will doctor up a vaccination record if necessary. I’m guessing he’s a True Believer.
It is pretty easy to lie about your health to move yourself ahead in the line.
I live in Illinois and here you filled out a form on a website which automatically assessed your eligibility for a vaccine. I did not lie on mine (so I only just got my first shot a few days ago) but it occurred to me it would be trivially easy to lie on it and get a shot earlier. I would guess there are penalties for that but I have never, ever heard of someone being busted for it.
I am not saying your brother did this (I would guess not) but given how you described him I don’t think it is a stretch to think he would (assuming he privately wanted a vaccination).